maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 12.35.18 UTC+3 Dave Plowman (News) kirjoitti:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Other than that, what is the difference between one
and a 'normal' speaker.


It's basically a US term. It wasn't used for speakers when I started my
career in broadcast. A monitor produced pictures. ;-)

Ahem. Both Tannoy and Lockwood who built speakers with Tannoy dual/concentric elements for studio use, were using the term "monitor" in the very early 60's.



One term was 'average quality monitor'. That would be used to give a rough
idea of what people heard at home - as opposed to the speakers in pro use..
Aurotone being one example - just a single driver in a small box.

Auratone was very much in pro use. Your 'average quality monitor' is probably a broadcast term. Music studios referred to them as "nearfield monitors (or Little 'Uns:-). They were mounted on the top of the console either side of the meter bridge and goniometer. Our Neve desks had a switch marked "Main" and "Nearfield" on the monitor panel. Other desks had simply Mon1 or Mon2

You'd hope that any speaker called a monitor would have tight quality
control - so that all of the same make and model sounded the same.

They did. Phil mentioned that, as one of JBLs strengths. We had dozens of Tannoy monitors (Lancaster, Canterbury, York,) at Decca, plus several pairs of Lockwood Major, and some large JBLs. All were pairs with adjacent serial numbers.

Funny how large firms, such as the BBC had their own terms for things. There was an STC microphone known within the Beeb as "apple and biscuit". Everywhere else it was called "Ball and Biscuit"

Iain

Iain

Once upon a time on usenet Iain Churches wrote:
maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 3.16.27 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:
Once upon a time on usenet Phil Allison wrote:
Graham. wrote:

-----------------


I thought a monitor was a speaker that was pointed at the performer
rather than the audience. What's the correct name for that?



** Correctly called an "on stage monitor" or "foldback wedge."

The boxes are typically wedge shaped to sit on a stage with the
front baffle at 45 degrees to the horizontal.

Yep, here in NZ back in the 80s they were reffered to as 'foldback
monitors' and were placed on stage just in front of the mic stands,
angled to face up at the mic position. They usually just contained
one or two 6" midrange drivers, at least the ones I worked with did.
(No tweeter as that would cause more of an issue with high frequency
feedback.) --


These days foldback systems may include in ear transducers, so the
term "wedges" is preferable for the stage foldback monitors. Mixing
foldback is quite an art, to give everyone on the stage exactly
precisely what he/she wants to hear with no feedback:-) Often with a
bigger band on stage, several layers of foldback might be needed,
starting with just backline. Good concert rigs have a separate
foldback mixer, which can be divided into subgroups just as one might
do for the main monitors. If you know the material well or have a
control score, you can lift fills and figures, and put the same
detail into foldback as you would into the main mix.

Yep. I only did a bit of foldback mixing back in the day and that was only
vocals. I see most performers use in-ear now. As you say that would solve
the problems with feedback I used to get sometimes.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

In article , "~misfit~"
writes:

Yep. I only did a bit of foldback mixing back in the day and that was only
vocals. I see most performers use in-ear now.

I could count on the fingers of one foot the pub bands I've seen using
in-ears, so perhaps you're referring to the tiny minority of
performers who play the big venues. The idea appeals to me but while
it removes the monitors, it means everything has to go somehow or
other to the monitor mixer which in turn means an electronic kit or
some degree of drum micing.

A colleague of mine, who also happens to be a fellow bass player, uses
them in his function band and swears by them.

--
Mike Fleming

maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 20.11.13 UTC+3 Mike Fleming kirjoitti:
In article , "~misfit~"
writes:

Yep. I only did a bit of foldback mixing back in the day and that was only
vocals. I see most performers use in-ear now.

I could count on the fingers of one foot the pub bands I've seen using
in-ears, so perhaps you're referring to the tiny minority of
performers who play the big venues. The idea appeals to me but while
it removes the monitors, it means everything has to go somehow or
other to the monitor mixer which in turn means an electronic kit or
some degree of drum micing.


A colleague of mine, who also happens to be a fellow bass player, uses
them in his function band and swears by them.

Yes.In-ear monitoring is popular for larger venues, where they even have make-up girls to cover the cable with skin-coloured sticky tape, and "dab it in" In-ear is a useful addition to the foldback system.

So you are a bass player? Excellent:-)

Iain

maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 15.49.33 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:
Once upon a time on usenet Iain Churches wrote:
maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 3.16.27 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:
Once upon a time on usenet Phil Allison wrote:
Graham. wrote:

-----------------


I thought a monitor was a speaker that was pointed at the performer
rather than the audience. What's the correct name for that?



** Correctly called an "on stage monitor" or "foldback wedge."

The boxes are typically wedge shaped to sit on a stage with the
front baffle at 45 degrees to the horizontal.

Yep, here in NZ back in the 80s they were reffered to as 'foldback
monitors' and were placed on stage just in front of the mic stands,
angled to face up at the mic position. They usually just contained
one or two 6" midrange drivers, at least the ones I worked with did.
(No tweeter as that would cause more of an issue with high frequency
feedback.) --


These days foldback systems may include in ear transducers, so the
term "wedges" is preferable for the stage foldback monitors. Mixing
foldback is quite an art, to give everyone on the stage exactly
precisely what he/she wants to hear with no feedback:-) Often with a
bigger band on stage, several layers of foldback might be needed,
starting with just backline. Good concert rigs have a separate
foldback mixer, which can be divided into subgroups just as one might
do for the main monitors. If you know the material well or have a
control score, you can lift fills and figures, and put the same
detail into foldback as you would into the main mix.

Yep. I only did a bit of foldback mixing back in the day and that was only
vocals. I see most performers use in-ear now. As you say that would solve
the problems with feedback I used to get sometimes.
--
In-ear has its limitations, but is a very useful addition to the foldback possibilities. Many experienced players, especially back and midline want as little as possible in the foldback. "Just give me bass and BD"

Others (think they) want everything. In-ear foldback and headphone foldback in general can give some performers difficulty with intonation.

Were you involved with the admin of the band you were with?
Musicians are notoriously bad in business matters, and anyone who can add up the gig fees on a table napkin and deduct the agent and taxman, and divide the result by the number of band and crew, is usually welcome in any band:-)

The big band in which I play, although not a pro band, is run like one. It is registered as a company. We have a chairman and a committee. We handle sales and PR ourselves, but have an agent through whom invoices are generated and tax and social costs are paid. No one in the band, with the exception of the conductor/leader who is a professional musician, gets paid. Most players are sufficiently well-healed, to regard the opportunity to play in a well-run band to capacity audiences as reward enough.

Iain

Once upon a time on usenet Mike Fleming wrote:
In article , "~misfit~"
writes:

Yep. I only did a bit of foldback mixing back in the day and that
was only vocals. I see most performers use in-ear now.

I could count on the fingers of one foot the pub bands I've seen using
in-ears, so perhaps you're referring to the tiny minority of
performers who play the big venues.

Yes. Alas 20 years of chronic back pain, reduced mobility and the massive
drop in income has limited my experience to what I can see in my home. :-/

The idea appeals to me but while
it removes the monitors, it means everything has to go somehow or
other to the monitor mixer which in turn means an electronic kit or
some degree of drum micing.

Yep understood.

A colleague of mine, who also happens to be a fellow bass player, uses
them in his function band and swears by them.

These are very different times to the late 70s / early 80s. ;-)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 12.35.18 UTC+3 Dave Plowman (News) kirjoitti:

............ when I started my
career in broadcast.....

You sound like Trevor McDonald:-)
What did you actually do in broadcast?

Iain

tiistai 25. heinäkuuta 2017 6.56.31 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:

Yes. Alas 20 years of chronic back pain, reduced mobility and the massive
drop in income has limited my experience to what I can see in my home. :-/


Sorry to hear that. Is this the result of your hard physical work with the band?


These are very different times to the late 70s / early 80s. ;-)
--
Indeed. Trucks have hydraulic tail lifts, forklifts, and freight cases have large wheels. But the amount of equipment a band now carries is far greater.

Iain

Once upon a time on usenet Iain Churches wrote:
tiistai 25. heinäkuuta 2017 6.56.31 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:

Yes. Alas 20 years of chronic back pain, reduced mobility and the
massive drop in income has limited my experience to what I can see
in my home. :-/

Sorry to hear that. Is this the result of your hard physical work
with the band?

Thanks. No I don;t think so. It was a freak occurance in 1995. I was going
to the neighbours over the back (1.8m) fence and the far side was smooth so
I 'vaulted' over and the ground on the far side was uneven and I landed
wrong. The resulting jar to my back ruptured L5 / S1 completely and also
damaged the next three discs up.

I've always had a high tolerace for pain so didn't cry to doctors too much
and so never got a proper scan. In the 18 months to two years before all of
the fluid leaked and was absorbed by my body I could go to a chiropracter
every 4 months or so and get it re-aligned. After there was no disc as such
left that was no longer possible and I was left with bone-on-bone at L5/S1
with pinched nerves.

Unfortunately it happened about 6 months after I'd invested everything I had
(and could raise) into setting up a business that, after a period of
establishment would have been very successful. By the time I realised I
could no longer do the work it was too late. I had no health insurance
(other than what the state provides) and there was no resale value of the
plant so I lost my 'life savings' too. I'd pushed through the pain hoping I
could get to the point where the business was making money but my back
slowed me down to much and failed too soon...

I didn't get an MRI done until 2014, 19 years after the injury. As I'd been
able to push through the pain for a few years and don't show how much I'm
hurting I was largey ignored by doctors. By the time I was unable to work
and sought proper care I was largely treated as a malingerer and/or "drug
seeker" for over a decade untilI found one good doctor who believed me and
pushed for the imaging.

I've tried a few things in the intervening years, trying to find a way to
make a living with my mind but when you're in pain you lose a lot of your
mental faculties. If I'm lucky I get a couple of hours a day when I can move
relatively well and don't feel too fatigued to think straight and get a few
things done. I'm single and live alone, always thought I'd look to settling
down and family when I had a decent stable income sorted...

Then 18 months ago the next disc up ruptured. I have seen a few state-funded
specialists but there's no impartial information available. If I visit a
surgeon he wants to cut (as he gets paid for that), if I see the TFESI guy
he just want's to give me TransForminal Steroid Epideural Injections (as he
gets paid for that) and he tells me that the available surgical options
aren't suitable in my case.... There is nobody with the relevant training
and information who I can see (funded - and I have no funds of my own amy
more) who has *my* best interests as their primary objective and every
option available to me has some pretty big downsides...

Sorry, sad story I don't usually share. I try to keep my mind occupied as
best I can with low-cost 'projects' etc.

These are very different times to the late 70s / early 80s. ;-)
--
Indeed. Trucks have hydraulic tail lifts, forklifts, and freight
cases have large wheels. But the amount of equipment a band now
carries is far greater.

Very true. I'd love to have got my hands on the sort of equiment available
these days back in the day. Not just on the audio side but stage lighting as
well. The intense colours that you can get quite cheaply with LEDs these
days (and being able to use pre-programmed sequences) would be awesome to
use.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

Once upon a time on usenet Iain Churches wrote:
maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 15.49.33 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:
Once upon a time on usenet Iain Churches wrote:
maanantai 24. heinäkuuta 2017 3.16.27 UTC+3 ~misfit~ kirjoitti:
Once upon a time on usenet Phil Allison wrote:
Graham. wrote:

-----------------


I thought a monitor was a speaker that was pointed at the
performer rather than the audience. What's the correct name for
that?



** Correctly called an "on stage monitor" or "foldback wedge."

The boxes are typically wedge shaped to sit on a stage with the
front baffle at 45 degrees to the horizontal.

Yep, here in NZ back in the 80s they were reffered to as 'foldback
monitors' and were placed on stage just in front of the mic stands,
angled to face up at the mic position. They usually just contained
one or two 6" midrange drivers, at least the ones I worked with
did. (No tweeter as that would cause more of an issue with high
frequency feedback.) --


These days foldback systems may include in ear transducers, so the
term "wedges" is preferable for the stage foldback monitors.
Mixing foldback is quite an art, to give everyone on the stage
exactly precisely what he/she wants to hear with no feedback:-)
Often with a bigger band on stage, several layers of foldback might
be needed, starting with just backline. Good concert rigs have a
separate foldback mixer, which can be divided into subgroups just
as one might do for the main monitors. If you know the material
well or have a control score, you can lift fills and figures, and
put the same detail into foldback as you would into the main mix.

Yep. I only did a bit of foldback mixing back in the day and that
was only vocals. I see most performers use in-ear now. As you say
that would solve the problems with feedback I used to get sometimes.
--
In-ear has its limitations, but is a very useful addition to the
foldback possibilities. Many experienced players, especially back
and midline want as little as possible in the foldback. "Just give me
bass and BD"

Others (think they) want everything. In-ear foldback and headphone
foldback in general can give some performers difficulty with
intonation.

Were you involved with the admin of the band you were with?
Musicians are notoriously bad in business matters, and anyone who can
add up the gig fees on a table napkin and deduct the agent and
taxman, and divide the result by the number of band and crew, is
usually welcome in any band:-)

Actually the keyboard player / synths / trumpet / 2nd rythm guitarist /
sometime lead-vocalist (all one person) was also the electronics whizz *and*
admin. He was a very clever bloke, not your typical 'muso' at all. Even
after I joined and took over the mixing duties he was the guy who ran all
the wiring and set up the amps - it's something he just didn't want to let
go of.

He was also chief solderer and was always fixing the guitarists effects
pedals etc.

The big band in which I play, although not a pro band, is run like
one. It is registered as a company. We have a chairman and a
committee. We handle sales and PR ourselves, but have an agent
through whom invoices are generated and tax and social costs are
paid. No one in the band, with the exception of the conductor/leader
who is a professional musician, gets paid. Most players are
sufficiently well-healed, to regard the opportunity to play in a
well-run band to capacity audiences as reward enough.

It sounds like a lot of fun.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)