"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote in message


Baring in mind they are of a similar basic design and
that the Linn has had nearly 40 years of
tweaking/tuning.

What would need to be tweaked, and how do you know for
sure that Linn properly identified and addressed them.

The "tweaking/tuning" could perhaps also be classified as
"still-trying-to-fix-some-of-the-flaws /
flogging-changes-to-keep-up-cashflow /
magic-passes-for-the-indoctrinated".
:-)

I have not kept up with upgrades and have not purchased
anything for my Linn except replacement lid hinges in
what must be 25 years. The last thing I got was a bonded
sub chassis which replaced the welded one. But I do know
there have been at least two electronic speed/ motor
controllers and a new base board with vibration absorbing
feet and most probably a host of other things.

Sounds to me like the origional design was defective or at best suboptimal
compared to prior art. None of those things represent technology that was
not well-known when the TD125 was first produced. If memory serves, both the
AR turntable and the TD125 had robust die cast sub-chassis which would be
the way to go.

Welded up = minimal tooling costs.

In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

I think your contempt for Linn is taking you past cynical and into
spiteful.

I think you are playing the "Go for the man, not the ball" stroke. :-)

In your last post you appeared to looking very hard to find things to
attack and then putting the worst possible interpretation on each point.

Then we get "twang their elastic bands".

I think you've been watching too much 'Strictly' and it has made spiteful
bitching acceptable to you. Your hatred of Linn is an order of magnitude
greater than my liking for the the LP12 ever was.

You are still attacking me rather than dealing with the points I made about
the LP12. Also you do seem to be slipping into 'mindreading' with your
assertions about my 'hatred' sic of Linn.

FWIW I think that IT was a very successful businessman who did a good job
of building a manufacturing firm and bringing jobs to his local area. Good
on him for that. Not been easy in recent decades to make a success of
manufacturing in the UK. And I think various of their other products are
fine. Also happy to buy their CDs. Even recommend their internet 320k radio
streams for anyone who is interested. Sorry if all that clashes with your
belief that I 'hate' Linn.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:

Sounds to me like the origional design was defective or
at best suboptimal compared to prior art. None of those
things represent technology that was not well-known when
the TD125 was first produced. If memory serves, both the
AR turntable and the TD125 had robust die cast
sub-chassis which would be the way to go.

Welded up = minimal tooling costs.

Yes of course, whatever you say, not biased at all are
you.

Of course I'm biased, but I'm also experienced and whatever I say, I know
someone well who will lovingly inform me even more about it at much as I can
stand. Detroit is a manufacturing town, has been for over a century, and
still is.

If you find the idea that welded-up assemblies are in this case a cheap
approximation to be controversial, then you are too far gone into the land
of Linn nirvana to bother with.

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

I think your contempt for Linn is taking you past cynical and into
spiteful.

I think you are playing the "Go for the man, not the ball" stroke. :-)

In your last post you appeared to looking very hard to find things to
attack and then putting the worst possible interpretation on each point.

Then we get "twang their elastic bands".

I think you've been watching too much 'Strictly' and it has made spiteful
bitching acceptable to you. Your hatred of Linn is an order of magnitude
greater than my liking for the the LP12 ever was.



I'm no particular fan of Linn products (they are/have always been too
expensive for me to even consider) but it has always struck me as odd that
'Linn haters' are always a lot more ferocious than fans of that particular
product line...??

"Keith G" wrote

I'm no particular fan of Linn products (they are/have always been too
expensive for me to even consider) but it has always struck me as odd that
'Linn haters' are always a lot more ferocious than fans of that particular
product line...??

Fans are rarely "ferocious"!

But I remember when the Linn turntable first came out the adulation from
certain quarters was bizarrely over the top. It seems to me that the OTT
praise of the Linn, always phrased in entirely subjective terms opened the
flood gates for the "subjectivist" school of HiFi reviewing, in which
objective facts were dismissed as irrelevant, whilst the reviewers personal
opinion, expressed in purely subjective terms and often displaying real
technical ignorance, was elevated to the status of "holy writ". I stopped
buying HiFi magazines because of this shift in reviwing style, so I can
probably thank the Linn turnatable for saving me a lot of money over the
years.

If a few people are prepared to criticise these sacred cows that's no bad
thing IMO.

David.

In article , David Looser
wrote:

I stopped buying HiFi magazines because of this shift in reviwing
style, so I can probably thank the Linn turnatable for saving me a lot
of money over the years.

I thought for a second you'd left the "f" out of "shift" there... ;-

If a few people are prepared to criticise these sacred cows that's no
bad thing IMO.

Well, I didn't really criticise the LP12 in terms of being able to rotate
an LP. So far as that was concened the audible problems I recall seemed to
be due to the asak cartridge. Not the actual TT or arm. Although I guess it
was the case back then that this was part of the 'magic system' that many
UK writers and dealers regarded as if on a plane above all else.

What seemed odd to me was that despite the claims about it being so good,
that bits tended to drop off, it apparently needed 'adjusting' every now
and then, and there has been a stream of 'upgrades'. Yet other equipment
like the Technics (to drag this back on-topic) didn't seem to require all
the fuss and added costs later on.

If I have any real criticisms they are of the 'flock' of flat-earth dealers
and writers who dismissed many alternatives. And in the process may have
lost us a number of good designs and makers that may have better and
cheaper so far as many end-users were concerned - if they'd had a chance to
listen to them on a more open-minded basis.

I can understand the dealers though if what various of them have told me
was true. A 40 percent markup on a product that people come in *expecting*
to buy because of what they'd read from 'experts', plus having an area
quasi-monopoly must have seemed a good business. Why kick the sacred cow
that gives you milk? Just sell the milk the customers come in ask for. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ...

...by which I mean those who droned on about Pace Rhythm
And Timing, of course. ;-

I thought the band did that...

"Wally" wrote in message
...
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ...
...by which I mean those who droned on about Pace Rhythm And Timing, of
course. ;-

I thought the band did that...



Hi Wally - long time no see! :-)

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

I'm no particular fan of Linn products (they are/have always been too
expensive for me to even consider) but it has always struck me as odd
that 'Linn haters' are always a lot more ferocious than fans of that
particular product line...??

Fans are rarely "ferocious"!

But I remember when the Linn turntable first came out the adulation from
certain quarters was bizarrely over the top.



OK, I wasn't particularly into 'audio' those days and although I had hifi
kit and played a lot of records I never bought hifi magazines, so I didn't
get to see the 'early Linn'...!!


It seems to me that the OTT
praise of the Linn, always phrased in entirely subjective terms opened the
flood gates for the "subjectivist" school of HiFi reviewing, in which
objective facts were dismissed as irrelevant, whilst the reviewers
personal opinion, expressed in purely subjective terms and often
displaying real technical ignorance, was elevated to the status of "holy
writ". I stopped buying HiFi magazines because of this shift in reviwing
style, so I can probably thank the Linn turnatable for saving me a lot of
money over the years.


I share your view entirely and realised that I could get a lot of really
nice charity shop vinyl for the price of a mag (last 5 years or so) which
was full of meaningless 'purple prose' from a few 'journos' using the
buzzwords/phrases of the day to describe their own experiences with kit I'll
never see, let alone hear.

This'll make you laff: I sold an unusual record player to someone a year or
so ago and he came to collect it all in a hurry (long journey). He spotted
my World Audio Design valve amp and phono stages and said 'Oh, do you read
HFW?' I said 'No, I gave those up as a waste of time and money some time
ago!' (or words to that effect). Turns out he was/still is one of the
editorial team and regular contributor to HFW!!

Oops! :-)



If a few people are prepared to criticise these sacred cows that's no bad
thing IMO.


Sure, but a few go way beyond 'criticism' when it comes to Linn and Bose
products - as well as with the better known snake oil merchants that are
frequently mentioned here!

"Keith G" wrote

Sure, but a few go way beyond 'criticism' when it comes to Linn and Bose
products - as well as with the better known snake oil merchants that are
frequently mentioned here!


Well I guess that products that acquire the lavish praise that Linn and Bose
have received will tens to attract "lavish" criticism as well.

In the case here Jim has made his view of the Linn turntable very clear, but
his criticisms were specific, he didn't merely dismiss the Linn as
"rubbish". And it seems to me that Bob's reaction to Jim's criticism was at
least as "ferocious" as Jim's criticism had been.

For myself I have no feelings about the Linn either way. I've no experience
of the actual turntable, only of the bizarrely OTT praise of it that brought
my buying of HiFi mags to an end. From the actual descriptions of it that I
saw (as distinct from the far more common "purple prose") it appeared to be
very little different from my Thorens TD150, so I could see no reason why it
should sound any better. These days I use a Luxman DD turntable. It claims
to be an "ultimate HiFi component", so it must be better than any other
turntable, mustn't it? :-)

David.