On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:01:40 -0000, Fed Up Lurker wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

Interesting - tried to view this link and was greeted with "you have been
permanently banned". First time, that I recall, trying to view anything on
canuckaudiomart.com. Not the most welcoming site I've ever found.

"Dick Bowman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:01:40 -0000, Fed Up Lurker wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

Interesting - tried to view this link and was greeted with "you have been
permanently banned". First time, that I recall, trying to view anything
on
canuckaudiomart.com. Not the most welcoming site I've ever found.


It works fine here, it is an image of a Systemdek.
So here is another, it's peak days were the 90's.
http://digilander.libero.it/bellocad...temdek_iix.jpg

Note: When Peter passed away, Audio Note bought up systemdek
and doubled the price, so no longer of interest to anyone when it
is priced as a Scottish deck:
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...logue_01.shtml

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:50:19 -0000, Fed Up Lurker wrote:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image...1528&is_user=0

They have now unbanned me - seems that they automatically ban European
addresses.

"Fed Up Lurker" wrote in message
...

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers of the time
looking
after old pals, and the mythology, and you have exhausted options and
comparisons, then if you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts.

But I'm no fan of it, and it's not original nor groundbreaking.
It's based on established isolation principles found in many T/T's from
the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many others) is it's an expensive
variation of cheaper longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house between
direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler wheels/gears
instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.


Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass will
beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness and you
will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals, wooden percussion
instruments, rimshots etc.

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
news
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David wrote in
message

If Technics stuff is hard to come by second hand now, I
suggest it's because it was junked when it was replaced
by something newer. Technics was never a prestige brand,
so it never had the second-hand value of, say, Quad or
Leak.


IME Matsu****a products tend to be well-engineered and well made, and
this
makes their origional purchasers tend to want to hold onto them.


My SL120 still does the job as well as ever.



As do the two Technics DD decks I have here - including the all-important
auto return/shutoff mechanisms.

"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals, wooden
percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the rumble.
Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches the
hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make of all
these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that belief is a
very powerful thing!

David.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals, wooden
percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.



Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.

"Fed Up Lurker" wrote in
message
"David Kennedy"
wrote in message
...
Fed Up Lurker wrote:

If you are 100% certain you didn't buy into reviewers
of the time looking after old pals, and the mythology,
and you have exhausted options and comparisons, then if
you feel the LP12 works for you thats what counts. But I'm no fan of it,
and it's not original nor
groundbreaking. It's based on established isolation principles found in
many T/T's from the 60's and 70's, my opinion (and many
others) is it's an expensive variation of cheaper
longstanding models such as:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/td125_dept.htm

I always liked those.

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html#t
http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/pioneer_pl12d.html
And many many others.

Including

http://www.garrard501.com/rebuild.html

That was an idler wheel mechanism, a half way house
between direct drive and belt drive -
The benefits of belt drive type isolation, but idler
wheels/gears instead of a clumsy losey belt.
And with pitch intergrity akin to direct drives.

Actually, the 501 was very similar to the top Garrard changer of the day,
minus arm and mechanism. I believe the model of the corresponding changer
was the RC 88.

No way does the idler provide the same level of isolation as a belt.

Idlers are prone to "flat spots", and are extra problmatical when they
harden up because of the relatively small area that the motor shaft engages.

The purpose of the idler was speed reduction from the 1800 rpm of the 4 pole
motor to the desired speed of the turntable.

Rumble was always a problem because of the high speed of the motor. It
corresponded to 30 Hz.

One of the early refinements to turntables was the adoption of motors with
more than just 4 poles, for the benefit of the slower rotational speed. This
moved the primary vibrational mode to a frequency that was well below the
resonance of the tone arm.

"Keith G" wrote


Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.




Here are 3 YouTubes I did a little while ago with my replinthed Lenco idler
deck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiV1-..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiV1-..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmEIE..._order&list=UL


You will need to allow for the fact that they have been recorded with a
little pocket digital video recorder's own built-in mono mic but it may give
you some idea.

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals,
wooden percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.

Not quite, but the idler-wheel arangment is inherently noisier.

Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.


I was just struck by the similarity of your language to those who rave about
other decks. Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you (the
Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any
third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so they
tell me). However you still used basically the same sort of wine-writers
language - "impact", "tightness", "detail" etc. that doesn't mean a damned
thing, but sounds impressive.

The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as you
claim why would anyone use anything else?

David.