"Rob" wrote in message
b.com...
On 22/12/2010 16:41, David wrote:
"Keith wrote in message
...
What price these Technic decks when they start becoming scarce?

Start here with one for 1,200 quid:

http://www.decks.co.uk/products/technics/sl1210mk5g

That will be a long time. There were one hell of a lot sold in the
early
nighties when the rave scene went main stream.

I was talking about the price of the remaining brand new stock in the
shops, not secondhand stuff.

If they keep them at that price I doubt they'll ever sell. There are so
many 2nd hand around that DJs would use those, and hifi entusiasts will
go
for something a little more refined or look for a decent old SP10.


What exactly are the substantial differences between domestic and pro-DJ?
Things like quick-start and pitch control I can understand, but you can
easily see these things on domestic decks.

I suppose my question is really: why don't people just buy a pro deck and
be done with it?

I've been using a Technics 1200/SME arm for a while now. I can certainly
detect difference between this and, say, a Roksan Xerxes or Lenco B55 I
have, but I'm not so sure about qualitative difference - enjoy them all
:-)


That's the point - these different decks all have their own strengths.
Nothing wrong with using the 1210 fo 'hifi' if you can live with the arm and
headshell. I could and did but there's some who have fitted 'better' arms to
these decks.

I guess my problem is I just slap the records on and listen to what I get!
:-)

"Keith G" wrote:

I base my opinion only on the fact that Technics was a smaller brand than
some other famous names and that, in many years of reading various mags, I
don't recall ever seeing anything like 'made by Technics' or similar when
referring to a different manufacturer. Obviously, I could be wrong - moot
now that the Technics brand has been buried!

I am continually impressed and sad by the fact that mags like HFN have many ads for
second hand equipment and rarely any Technics is offered. Given some of it is highly
sought after I have resorted to thinking that they never did penetrate into England
by much, mostly because it was not kosher to buy japanese if you were in England and
need a stereo component. I am inclined to believe that sales people would turn you on
to english brands, or failing that a european/american brand rather than something
from Japan.
This tendency makes any used Technics out there either not available for those of us
who cannot gauge the actual availability by showing up on fleamarkets and fairs. Or
it was thrown out long ago in favour of something else that floggers thought might
better attract customers at their stall. Noone wants to drag something heavy around
to markets when they think any other brand and model would sell better.

As a foreigner I can of course use any online market place to scour for the stuff I
collect, but having already gotten two each of the ESL57 and Quad II required to feel
sufficiently old-school-on-a-budget, I am also looking at a whole lot of a appealing
other old english stuff - while I am actually trying to fullfill my Technics
collection. I cannot count the times when I have wondered if I should add something
like a Radford amp as well. I still need a tube preamp. But logistic of getting these
things to me and the probability of poor handling by the carrier means I am looking
for something for my Technics collection, but the few things I need are far between
and usually requires a lot of work too, which also ties up funds. One should always
add sufficiently to restore an item of the past, as usually noone else did much to it
since it was bought. I also fail to see the fascination many sellers /(and buyers)
have with New Old Stock. To think that something that sat around unused for 20+ years
will be like it was just made. Rubber parts and caps will need tending.
For 5 years of collecting I am only short a few items in my Technics collection, but
I am running out of affordable ways to get the device to then spend money to restore
it. Typically now I am left with all the expensive ways to obtain it, and then face
spending even more making it just somewhat semi useful as well as tolerable to listen
to.

There are still a lot fo Technics equipment around, but mostly it is turntables and
perhaps cassette decks. They made fine equipment but all of it needs servicing just
like any other in order to perform its best. A collector may place mroe value in
ownership than anyone else. But people relying on top performing gear may want to
stick with current productiongear, or acknowledge that they have to pay dearly to
aquire, refurbish and maintain vintage gear - of any brand.

-Mikkel

In article , Mikkel Breiler
wrote:


I am continually impressed and sad by the fact that mags like HFN have
many ads for second hand equipment and rarely any Technics is offered.
Given some of it is highly sought after I have resorted to thinking that
they never did penetrate into England by much, mostly because it was not
kosher to buy japanese if you were in England and need a stereo
component.

They penetrated UK well enough for me to buy one (which I still have and
use). However back in circa the 1980s the UK mags generally droned on about
the 'magic' of belt drive and Linn in particular. Anyone who didn't prefer
them to Japanese DD was regarded as being cloth-eared or an idiot.

FWIW having used a Linn system for show demos and tests I had no real wish
to personally own/use one at home, and preferred a Technics DD turntable.
It still works nicely.

Also IIRC Linn, etc, tended to have both a higher markup and a higher
price. So some dealers - who then could legally have controlled-area
dealerships with effective price-control - could treat them as a license to
print money *if* they obtained a dealership. Given the way magazines talked
about them such items virtually sold themselves in the shop. I wonder if
most buyers even tried listening to the DD alternatives at all.Have my
doubts about how many dealers back then would have suggested they do so.
:-)

That said, since I used to work designing equipment for a UK maker I am
certainly sympathetic to the idea of encouraging UK citizens to consider
buying UK equipment, etc. :-) But only if there isn't some other factor
that overloads that. Like performance for price. ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Mikkel Breiler" wrote

I am continually impressed and sad by the fact that mags like HFN have
many ads for
second hand equipment and rarely any Technics is offered. Given some of it
is highly
sought after I have resorted to thinking that they never did penetrate
into England
by much, mostly because it was not kosher to buy japanese if you were in
England and
need a stereo component. I am inclined to believe that sales people would
turn you on
to english brands, or failing that a european/american brand rather than
something
from Japan.

I don't agree with this at all. Back in the 1970s there was a lot of
Technics equipment sold, just as there was plenty of Akai, Pioneer etc. If
anything it was the American and, to a lesser extent, continental European
brands that were harder to get hold of.

If Technics stuff is hard to come by second hand now, I suggest it's because
it was junked when it was replaced by something newer. Technics was never a
prestige brand, so it never had the second-hand value of, say, Quad or Leak.

David.

Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I base my opinion only on the fact that Technics was a smaller brand
than some other famous names and that, in many years of reading various
mags, I don't recall ever seeing anything like 'made by Technics' or
similar when referring to a different manufacturer. Obviously, I could
be wrong - moot now that the Technics brand has been buried!

Technics is part of Panasonic.


Yes, the Matsu****a group (sp?) but the Technics name has been ended
AFAIK...??

The phrase I saw was summat along the lines like Technics didn't want to
be associated with modern, 'built to a budget' flyaway products so they
would rather shut down completely.

Probably a load of blx though unless anyone can confirm...??

Not totally shut down...

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/290187/index.html



--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

"Mikkel Breiler" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote:

I base my opinion only on the fact that Technics was a smaller brand than
some other famous names and that, in many years of reading various mags, I
don't recall ever seeing anything like 'made by Technics' or similar when
referring to a different manufacturer. Obviously, I could be wrong - moot
now that the Technics brand has been buried!

Technics ceased being it's own brand back in the 90's.
National Panasonic who own the Technics name will maintain
it as a brand as such, aimed at the niche DJ market -
headphones, variable pitch "dj" cd players etc.
But as an example the execellent SL-12** range was only
a hit amongst the semi-pro brigade for it's pitch and scratch
ability, picked up speed instantly etc. But in the true pro/broadcast
world it was the German EMD console that was used. The BBC
still has them but broadcasts are now all digital sourced.
Technics hasn't had it's own production line in many years.
There is a mythology surrounding turntables, direct drives are
supposedly major criminals, and the clumsy 3 point suspended
belt drive is the cream of the crop, total codswallop of course.
Here in UK a "specialist" home grown turntable has been bigged
up for decades, the long implication being it has it's own unique
sonic footprint, absolute ********! It was based on 70's 3- point
suspended belt drives from the likes of Thorens, Pioneer etc.
What dictates the sonics are the cartridge, correct alignment and
tracking, and the RIAA curve of the phono stage.
So the same cartridge into the same phono stage will sound
identical regardless if on a direct drive or belt drive, if both
decks are correctly configured and isolated then there will be no
discernable difference.
And like you, I believe the Technics direct drive range are vastly
underrated, and of course there are the budget clones from the
likes of Vestrex, Audia Technica etc which infringed on Technics
market. And of course the evil of compressed formats, downloads,
and hand held devices all played their part.


I am continually impressed and sad by the fact that mags like HFN have
many ads for
second hand equipment and rarely any Technics is offered. Given some of it
is highly
sought after I have resorted to thinking that they never did penetrate
into England
by much, mostly because it was not kosher to buy japanese if you were in
England and
need a stereo component. I am inclined to believe that sales people would
turn you on
to english brands, or failing that a european/american brand rather than
something
from Japan.

Very little comes out of Japan these days, nearly everything comes
off the same Chinese production lines. If it's an iPod or a Sony Erriccson,
a Plasma or an an LED, It will come out of China.
Slightly off topic, but Sony and Phillips bought into LG and
Tosh teamed up with Samsung - TSST corp, anyway whatever the
badge on the hardware, it will have come off the same production lines.
..
Just three randomly plucked examples just now via a google search.
http://www.multizoneav.com/Product/P...5H/GoogleBase/
http://www.lg.com/uk/tv-audio-video/...v-47LX9900.jsp
http://www.sony.co.uk/product/t46-hx-series/kdl-46hx903
They may have slightly different asthetics, and a few additional
features, but the panel and the "engine"? Can you discern what
is the basic differences?

I have very little time for subjective review mags, there is one publication
with which it is unknown who wrote the subjective review, but they are
journalists first and foremost and within that publishing house they get
shuffled around, six months on a gardening mag, temp editor of a camping
and caravan title etc, you know the sort of thing.
But the title you mention in your paragraph above, HFN, at least sticks to
the correct principle and it's editor PMi and his integrity has never been
in question, and as a tech journo his importance over the past 20 years is
established. Interestingly a contributor to that mag is also a regular in
one
these groups crossposted in this thread, oddly with his technical background
he only has an opinion column in that title?
I've just had another google browse, that mags feb issue has a test/review
of a a hideously expensive and pig-ugly speaker, which will be of no
interest to me,
but also an investigation into "DIY Hi-Fi - Wild frontier?", thats grabbed
my
attention so once this is posted I'm off to WH Smiths to get a copy!

This tendency makes any used Technics out there either not available for
those of us
who cannot gauge the actual availability by showing up on fleamarkets and
fairs. Or
it was thrown out long ago in favour of something else that floggers
thought might
better attract customers at their stall. Noone wants to drag something
heavy around
to markets when they think any other brand and model would sell better.

You're not doing it right. There is of course ebay and gumtree, and here in
UK we have Cash Converters from which I have sourced some gems, recently
an esata (external) 1tb Lacie HDD for 25 quid. Here in London we have some
excellent "pre-owned" outlets, in King St in Hammersmith there is true
bargain basement outlet from which I have sourced a number of TDA1541/1543
cd players for NOS'ing, never paying more than 30 quid.
And in Bell street just behind Edgware Rd tube is a haven from whom a
number of years back I sourced a 777ES Dat and a 777ES cd player.
Currently he has a pristine and very alluring Studer DAT, but I must resist.
It is simple, whatever your global location, if there is a specific Technics
model
you seek, just google it adding your location, so I would do: "Technics
SL***, +London"
If it's for sale it will be online and if in your location it will be in the
search results.


snipped
Technics was always a big name in the UK market, in the 70's Lasky's, Dixons
etc
along with the likes of Trio/Kenwood, JVC and Hitachi (Yes, they were
mainstream
HiFi brands once) I work in a male dominated industry (railways) with plenty
of
disposable income and gadget fetish nerds. Technics is a name all are
familiar with, and that brands turntables are owned by many. Unfortunately
it's
brands such as Accuphase, Krell, Wadia, Luxman, and many more that failed
to "penetrate" the UK mindset. Mainly because they were silly money and
ugly.
(But still very enticing)

Removed one usenet group from this post - it's full of nutters.

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Given the way magazines talked about them such items virtually sold
themselves in the shop. I wonder if most buyers even tried listening to
the DD alternatives at all.Have my doubts about how many dealers back
then would have suggested they do so.

My first turntable was either a very cheap Garrard or BSR can't remember
but around 1977 I got a Technics DD turntable with SME arm and Sure V15
cartridge. It was an SL150 and there is a picture of one here
http://www.vintagetechnics.info/images/sl150catalog.jpg

To cut a long story short I eventually got a Linn LP12, Ittok and Asak.

Now you can say what you like but the dynamics, imaging and tone of that
thing was/is glorious to my ears. I still have it and still hugely prefer
it to anything I've heard since. That's not to say that it's not
coloration that I like, it may well be but I love it.

For me it made the Technics combo sound lifeless, flat and uninvolving.

I expect your milage to vary.


Are you seriously suggesting that using a Linn turntable rather than a
Technics one makes any difference at all to the "dynamics, imaging and
tone"? The cartridge, and to a lesser extent the arm will make an audible
difference, but not the turntable. Any turntable that goes round at the
right speed, with minimal speed variation (wow) and rumble, will sound the
same as any other.

David.

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:


Are you seriously suggesting that using a Linn turntable rather than a
Technics one makes any difference at all to the "dynamics, imaging and
tone"? The cartridge, and to a lesser extent the arm will make an
audible difference, but not the turntable. Any turntable that goes
round at the right speed, with minimal speed variation (wow) and
rumble, will sound the same as any other.

Not my experience.

I did own a turntable between the Technics and the Linn an Ariston. Yes, I
know, washing machines. Anyway, I changed from the the technics to this
high mass belt drive purely for dynamics and for some time the arm and
cartridge were the same as on the technics. So yes, I am suggesting that.

I would say if you think turntables sound the same, you've not listened to
many. What more can I say that's how it is for me.


I would be fascinated to know if you could tell when a turntable had been
changed in a blind listening test. I suspect not.

David.

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:


To cut a long story short I eventually got a Linn LP12, Ittok and Asak.

Now you can say what you like but the dynamics, imaging and tone of that
thing was/is glorious to my ears. I still have it and still hugely
prefer it to anything I've heard since. That's not to say that it's not
coloration that I like, it may well be but I love it.

OK, thanks for the kind permission, I'll say what I like. :-)

For me the most annoying defect of the LP12/Ittok/Asak was the obvious
mistracking distortion of the Asak. Made things like massed strings during
climaxes at the end-of-side on classical music LPs sound like sandpaper
over rough wood.

The same mistracking and high HF distortion probably also gave things like
guitar and other 'impulsive' instruments more 'attack'. Maybe that's why
people who mainly listened to rock/pop liked it. Add in the LF resonances
and the way the belt-drive speed wobbled when the sound changed level, you
can end up with a mechanical version of 'smiley eq' to make the sound more
attractive to some. To me the result was more a 'music box' than a way of
listening to what was on the LP. But I realise that some people pay large
sums for music boxes... ;-

I also disliked the various clumsy 'features' of the LP12. Like the way the
lid bumpers tended to keep falling off, or the mat stuck to the LP and came
away with it when you took off the LP. And the declared 'need' to keep
messing about with the deck to keep it 'on song' as the acolytes might have
put it. Maybe they improved later, but the early Linn systems I had to use
all seemed to me to be made out of orange boxes, rubber bands, etc. Not
exactly construction I'd have expected for the price.

For me it made the Technics combo sound lifeless, flat and uninvolving.

I found the Technics and a V15/IIIHE simply lets me enjoy the music on the
LP and not keep hearing obvious added distortions/colourations from things
like the Asak. And meant I didn't have to waste any more worry/time/cash on
all the 'upgrades' Linn have peddled to LP12 worshippers who kept being
told this would get them to perfection.... until there was another
'upgrade' to buy. :-)

I expect your milage to vary.

It has. Thanks for giving me permission to say so. Can't say that I've ever
since wished I'd used a Linn TT/arm/cart. But I'm quite happy if others
enjoy them. :-)

So in my case, cutting a long story short: Experience of the LP12 / Ittok /
Asak was the reason I was so happy *not* to choose that combination.

Oh, and I also have disliked the way the old 'flat earth' Linn/Naim axis of
dealers + writers made it harder for many other UK companies with arguably
better products to setup and succeed.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"David Looser" wrote in
message

Are you seriously suggesting that using a Linn turntable
rather than a Technics one makes any difference at all to
the "dynamics, imaging and tone"? The cartridge, and to a
lesser extent the arm will make an audible difference,
but not the turntable. Any turntable that goes round at
the right speed, with minimal speed variation (wow) and
rumble, will sound the same as any other.

Really bad turntables can cause really bad sound, but like everything else,
all good turntables sound the same.

It is well known among people who have studied Linn turntables with a good
engineering background in relevant areas that there was nothing that was
unique or exemplary about the Linn products other than the marketing and
hype.