"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger
wrote:


With all due respect I suspect that you have no
practical technical experience with subwoofers capable
of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low distortion.

Certainly true in my case.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably
extrapolate them to 10 Hz. Note what the approximate
threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

True enough. However I'm wondering how often this is
needed for music. I can see that some organ notes may
require high levels below 20Hz, and perhaps some special
cases like thwacks on big drums. But beyond that is it
more likely to be a 'requirement' for the bangs and thuds
of film soundtracks than mere music? The lowest bass
guitar notes I know of off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC
on a Little Feat album.

Please remember that I'm not describing my personal system. My personal
system contains a modest Paradigm 12"
subwoofer. So, I don't feel any need to justify the system I have been
talking about. I didn't even work on the subwoofer part of the
system. I did voice the upper part of that system, but the subsytem I voiced
has LF response that ends around 50 Hz.

These very large systems are IMO "ne plus ultra". IMO, they address every
reasonable need and then some. This
particular system can provide SPL's on the order of 130 dB @ 1 meter from 10
Hz to at least 20 KHz with low distortion. One benefit of this is that
nonlinear distortion at more reasonable listening levels is relatively low.

The system has carefully ontrolled directivity above 300 Hz and is used in a
room with significant acoustical treatment. It's owner has been
acquring parts and tuning and modifying it for over 20 years so funding it
has represented a nominal annual expense.

Furthermore, the system is sometimes used with the subwoofer levels set
artificially high in order to entertain, as opposed
to providing realistic reproduction, which is it also capable of. I don't
believe that it is operated at ear-damaging levels very
often, if frequency versus SPL is properly considered.

I haven't looked at spectral analysis of the program material or the
acoustical response of the entire system. Obviously, I'm intimately
familiar with the system's acoustic response spectral range above 50 Hz
since I voiced it based on listening and measurements.

What I do know is that the subwoofer drivers are capable of 30 mm Xmax, but
I've never seen actual cone motion in
excess of about 12 mm peak which is equivalent to 6 mm Xmax. At the time I
saw this, the bass impact in the listening
room was physically significant but not unpleasant.
First off, please notice that I am not describing my personal system. For
the record my personal system uses a modest but

Am I also correct in suspecting that by the time you get
down to such low frequencies the effect on LP replay is
primarily because we are in the region of the resonances
of the the arm-stylus and TT suspension?

Yes. That and resonances in the structure, etc.

People think that a turntable that is mounted resiliently, it will reject
acoustic feedback. In fact, resilient mounting will lose effectiveness as
you go below its resonant frequency. If you have a feedback path that has
enough low frequency extension, you will get feedback at frequencies that
are below the resonant frequency of the turntable's suspension.

One simple solution is to simply roll off the response of the LP playback
system at some "relatively high frequency" like 15-20 Hz.

"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

Is the title of a novel by Jeanette Winterson published in 1985. Not sure
what it has to do with the thread though.

David.

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa)
and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as
oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like notes and
more like sensations":-)

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty
impressive in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move
with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.

I cannot think of an organ in the UK ( most of which have the 30-note
standard pedalboard to accomodate cantus firmus) with a pedalboard
that goes below this.

Iain

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


With all due respect I suspect that you have no practical technical
experience with subwoofers capable of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low
distortion.

Certainly true in my case.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably extrapolate them to 10
Hz. Note what the approximate threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

True enough. However I'm wondering how often this is needed for music. I
can see that some organ notes may require high levels below 20Hz, and
perhaps some special cases like thwacks on big drums. But beyond that is
it
more likely to be a 'requirement' for the bangs and thuds of film
soundtracks than mere music? The lowest bass guitar notes I know of
off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC on a Little Feat album.

Not just Little Feat, Jim.

A five-string bas guitar with standard tuning has the lowest note
B(0) at 30.8Hz. Such instruments are not particularly common.

On the four string bass guitar, standard tuning, the lowest note E(1) is
41.2Hz.

Of the instruments of the orchestra, the harp has the lowest range.
Most orchestral harps with the exception of cross -strung instruments
are tuned diatonically with the lowest note at C(0) 32.7 Hz


So I wonder what type of music Arny can be referring to.

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"Bob Latham" wrote in message
I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can say I prefer the
sound of one item over another and in that context I preferred my Linn
to
other TTs at the time and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer
sounding than CD.


I know you said that you're not continuing in this thread but just out of
curiousity Bob, which other turntables did you listen to at the time?
I'm only asking this as I never heard one in the early 70s and wondered
what you compared it against. When I first heard one was in the early
80s and although I thought it was a great turntable, the two major
competitors at the time (in the UK) were the Roxan Zerxes and the Pink
Triangle. I prefered both of these over the LP12, which I thought was
the least transparent of the three. I never got to hear a Townshend (but
have recently bought one that needs and arm and cartridge fitting) so
couldn't include that.
I've also never heard a Garrard 301 or 401 or any of the esoteric elite
turtables but have heard a Technics SP10 and a Thorens TD125 and still
think the original PT was the one that stood and still stands out.


Of all the turntables I have had I remember two of them which 'sounded'
particularly nice: a 'pagoda style' Systemdek with very light springing
and a Pink Triangle - LPT1, I believe it was.

The best two I have owned (and still do) are
Garrard 401/SME3012 arm/Sure V15/III and
EMT 948/997 arm/ShureV15

The best two I have ever heard in comparison tests (conducted at
a broadcast facility as a part of an AES regional seminar) were
SME 30/2 and Verdier Platine.

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the
bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and
tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals,
wooden percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.

Not quite, but the idler-wheel arangment is inherently noisier.

Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks
matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer
make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.


I was just struck by the similarity of your language to those who rave


Rave?


about
other decks. Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you
(the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any
third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so
they tell me). However you still used basically the same sort of
wine-writers language - "impact", "tightness", "detail" etc. that doesn't
mean a damned thing, but sounds impressive.


Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language - is the
use of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of counter-measure? I use
the language that best describes what I find, others do the same - some
wax more lyrical than others, what's the problem?



The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as
you claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.


The 301 was the choice of a large percentage of studios
and broadcasters. Even the 401 did not totally replace it,
due to the longevity of the 301.

At that time, there were, with the exception of EMT, few
other turntables judged to be anything like as good.

Both the 301 and 401 are still in strong demand, and there
are a number of small firms who painstakingly refurbish them.

Now, with the exception of those with USB outputs,
the cheapo turntables have disappeared.

Vinyl has become a thriving niche market, with people
ready and willing to make a much larger investment
for a quality turntable (much more than they are willing
to pay for a CD player, after all, they all sound the same:-)

The manufacturers that are left are able to concentrate
on engineering quality instead of having to build down to a price.

SME and Verdier are excellent examples.

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/

http://www.jcverdier.com/

Just as Keith points out, new vinyl issues are usually sold
out within days of release. Twenty years after vinyl's
"demise" this seems remarkable..

In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an extent
that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets, and
three CD plants in the ÜK are faced with closure due to over
capacity.

Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from brick-and-mortar
local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there has been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart "Big box" store in
Europe that wipes out neighborhood stores for miles around?

Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the loss of sales on
physical media (CD) but always forget to mention the vast increase in sales
of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet access from Europe? ;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from
brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there has
been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart "Big box" store in
Europe that wipes out neighborhood stores for miles around?

Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the loss of sales on
physical media (CD) but always forget to mention the vast increase in
sales of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet access from Europe?
;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.



Woah! I would say that Iain scored a 'palpable hit' hit - Arny's gone off
like he's got a slapped face!

As a confirmed vinyl bigot I can safely say I don't give a fig what is
happening to CD sales (especially in the US), but *downloads* have ****-all
to do with them - they are not CDs! It is my belief that CD sales are
plummeting and that they will soon end up a niche product like vinyl is
today.

Interestingly, there is currently an advert on the telly (or was recently -
I watch only the news and recorded progs) for a boxed set of 16 classic,
original artists Rock & Roll CDs for £29.95 - money back if not bowled over.
The tagline was 'save hundreds on the price of downloads'...!!!

As they say: what goes around* goes around....

:-)


*@ 33.33 rpm, natch

"Iain Churches" wrote


snipt


The 301 was the choice of a large percentage of studios
and broadcasters. Even the 401 did not totally replace it,
due to the longevity of the 301.

At that time, there were, with the exception of EMT, few
other turntables judged to be anything like as good.

Both the 301 and 401 are still in strong demand, and there
are a number of small firms who painstakingly refurbish them.



With no shortage of takers!



Now, with the exception of those with USB outputs,
the cheapo turntables have disappeared.

Vinyl has become a thriving niche market, with people
ready and willing to make a much larger investment
for a quality turntable (much more than they are willing
to pay for a CD player, after all, they all sound the same:-)


Surely there is no-one here who cannot see how the hightened 'perception of
quality' playing a pristine record on a costly and massive high end
turntable greatly enhances the experience compared with shoving a CD into a
CD player - even an expensive one where 80% of the cost will be in the
fascia panel, LCD display and casing....


The manufacturers that are left are able to concentrate
on engineering quality instead of having to build down to a price.

SME and Verdier are excellent examples.

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/

http://www.jcverdier.com/


I'm not a 'boutique audio' person but I hafta say I do like some of that
Verdier kit!



Just as Keith points out, new vinyl issues are usually sold
out within days of release. Twenty years after vinyl's
"demise" this seems remarkable..


A talking head on the box some months ago said that demand for vinyl was
very steady.



In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an extent
that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets, and
three CD plants in the ÜK are faced with closure due to over
capacity.


Ultimately, given the stringent requirements (clean conditions/machinery)
for CD manufacture I think it would be easy to see them disappear completely
if it were not for the computer and audiovisual aspects of 'silver disk'
usage - I had no idea the process was so complex until I saw then on 'How
It's Made'!!