I am considering archiving 24/96 files to DVD but I am having one or
two problems. If I simply copy the files to a UDF filesystem on the DVD
my universal player will not play them back. This is not necessarily a
stopper but it would be a significant advantage to be able to hear what
is on the DVD. However, if I mangle the files a bit into a DVD-Audio
format/arrangement the universal player will play them back.
Unfortunately, I am reluctant to use a format which may soon disappear.

Is it usual that consumer DVD players will not play standard audio
files?

Are there modestly priced DVD players which play standard 24/96 audio
files?

Are there modestly priced computers with good enough analogue circuitry
to work with 24/96 files?

On 27 Apr 2005 01:12:55 -0700, andy wrote:

I am considering archiving 24/96 files to DVD but I am having one or
two problems. If I simply copy the files to a UDF filesystem on the DVD
my universal player will not play them back. This is not necessarily a
stopper but it would be a significant advantage to be able to hear what
is on the DVD. However, if I mangle the files a bit into a DVD-Audio
format/arrangement the universal player will play them back.
Unfortunately, I am reluctant to use a format which may soon disappear.

Is it usual that consumer DVD players will not play standard audio
files?


Yes

Are there modestly priced DVD players which play standard 24/96 audio
files?


The Pioneer 575 will play DVD-Audio and SACD.

Are there modestly priced computers with good enough analogue circuitry
to work with 24/96 files?


Yes - there are plenty of 24/96 capable sound cards from just under 100
pounds upwards.

However - my suggestion would be to use the DVD Video format which will
handle stereo 24 bit 96kHz material without any compression. Just use a
simple still image at low bit rate for the video part. This is universally
playable on just about any DVD player. Cheap ones might resample down to
48kHz but better ones, like the Pioneer above, will output at the full
sample rate. You might need some slightly more specialised burning
software to create the discs though.

Cheers.

James.

Is it usual that consumer DVD players will not play standard audio
files?

Yes

Why? The player will happily play various audio files on CD but, unless
I am doing something wrong, not DVD.

Are there modestly priced DVD players which play standard 24/96
audio
files?

The Pioneer 575 will play DVD-Audio and SACD.

This is what I am using.

However - my suggestion would be to use the DVD Video format which
will
handle stereo 24 bit 96kHz material without any compression.

Thanks for the suggestion. I would expect DVD-Video as a format to last
for a while but I am not sure how recognisable it is as an audio file
format. Using weird formats makes the manipulation of the files
awkward.

You might need some slightly more specialised burning
software to create the discs though.

This I want to avoid. At the moment to create DVD-Audio I can use a
couple of commands to create an image of the UDF file system, modify
and install the necessary files, and then burn the image using the
standard burner.

On 27 Apr 2005 07:26:29 -0700, andy wrote:

Is it usual that consumer DVD players will not play standard audio
files?

Yes

Why? The player will happily play various audio files on CD but, unless
I am doing something wrong, not DVD.


Are you talking about uncompressed formats or compressed formats like wma
or mp3? It is really a firmware issue - maybe Pioneeer have a more
expensive solution that they would like you to buy to play uncompressed
computer files.


However - my suggestion would be to use the DVD Video format which
will
handle stereo 24 bit 96kHz material without any compression.

Thanks for the suggestion. I would expect DVD-Video as a format to last
for a while but I am not sure how recognisable it is as an audio file
format. Using weird formats makes the manipulation of the files
awkward.


DVD video is a delivery format, not a computer storage format - and is
likely to be around much longer than DVD-Audio which will turn into a
curiosity - just like SQ, QS or CD-4 from the 70's. Does anyone have the
technology to play those discs nowadays? If you want something better than
CD that is widely playable then DVD video is the best way to go.

You might need some slightly more specialised burning
software to create the discs though.

This I want to avoid. At the moment to create DVD-Audio I can use a
couple of commands to create an image of the UDF file system, modify
and install the necessary files, and then burn the image using the
standard burner.


DVD video should be even simpler than DVD audio - there are plenty more
tools that support it so I'm not sure what the problem is. But then we
could be talking about completely different things. I'm not sure if what
you are calling DVD audio is really a standards compliant DVD-A disc or
just a DVD-ROM with audio files on it - there is a very big difference
between the two.

Cheers.

James.

Are you talking about uncompressed formats or compressed formats like
wma
or mp3?

Archiving standard audio files at 24/94 resolution is my main concern.
This would be in aiff or wav type formats.

Having browsed the Pioneer FAQ it states that wav and mp3 files can be
read from DVDs. This was not my interpretation of the manual. I think I
need to sacrifice a few more DVDs to check I have not made a mistake
with my first attempt.

DVD video is a delivery format, not a computer storage format - and
is
likely to be around much longer than DVD-Audio which will turn into a
curiosity - just like SQ, QS or CD-4 from the 70's.

DVD-Video and DVD-Audio are a bunch of files on a filesystem. They are
not like an Audio CD but more like a Data CD. However, there is, I
believe, a requirement for the contents of some of the files to be
stored sequentially on the disk and so one could argue for somewhere in
between.

DVD-Audio is an extension to DVD-Video which requires better D-A
hardware but this is becoming fairly cheap. My guess is that in a year
or two all new DVD players will support DVD-Audio with the possible
exception of the very cheapest because the cost to include it will be
very small and the impact on sales of not having that box ticked is
likely to be not small.

Unfortunately, this still means a lot of DVD hardware around will not
play DVD-Audio.

If you want something better than CD that is widely playable then DVD

video is the best way to go.

Agreed. 24/96 is supported as the highest resolution but players that
cannot meet this are allowed to drop the resolution.

DVD video should be even simpler than DVD audio - there are plenty
more
tools that support it so I'm not sure what the problem is. But then
we
could be talking about completely different things. I'm not sure if
what
you are calling DVD audio is really a standards compliant DVD-A disc
or
just a DVD-ROM with audio files on it - there is a very big
difference
between the two.

The problem is that I am principally archiving audio file which I would
want to extract and process again as audio files at a future date. The
ability to play them in home DVD players is certainly desirable but is
not the main objective.

My original problem was that creating a DVD with a UDF file system
containing audio files in WAV format did not play on the DVD player.
However, creating a DVD with a UDF file system and arranging the files
and their formats to conform with DVD-Audio did produce a playable DVD.

I am newish to DVDs so I had to look up DVD-ROM. Assuming DVD-Audio
means the files in the AUDIO_TS directory and DVD-Video means the files
in the VIDEO_TS and DVD-ROM simply means other files on the disc then I
would ideally like a DVD-ROM with audio files on it to work.

"andy" asked

Are there modestly priced computers with good enough analogue circuitry
to work with 24/96 files?


Pretty much any PC withreasonable performance - say 1Ghz processor and 256MB
RAM - can do 24/96. You need a capable sound card. I've not used any
high-resolution internal cards . the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 can be had for
about £60 including VAT, and there are others.

When I was getting the hardware, I decided it would be convenient to have
external equipment to work with a laptop. I settled on the Soundblaster
Audigy NX, which works fine.

Tim




..

How well do these cards work at preserving the difference between 24/96
and 16/44.1? The stated signal to noise ratio is typically 100 dB which
is almost 16 bits signal and 8 bits noise. Plus the analogue circuitry
operating in the environment of an operating computer is likely to pull
this performance down even more.

On 28 Apr 2005 16:10:49 -0700, andy wrote:

How well do these cards work at preserving the difference between 24/96
and 16/44.1? The stated signal to noise ratio is typically 100 dB which
is almost 16 bits signal and 8 bits noise. Plus the analogue circuitry
operating in the environment of an operating computer is likely to pull
this performance down even more.


If you want serious 24/96 performance then consider an external analogue
to digital convertor - this is probably a good idea whatever recorder you
use. The Lynx cards are supposed to be good but not as good as the best
external convertors. The M-Audio cards are also good value for money -
they're usually better than the Creative Labs/EMU equivalents but not up
to the standard of the Lynx cards.

Cheers.

James.

"andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
How well do these cards work at preserving the difference between 24/96
and 16/44.1? The stated signal to noise ratio is typically 100 dB which
is almost 16 bits signal and 8 bits noise. Plus the analogue circuitry
operating in the environment of an operating computer is likely to pull
this performance down even more.


A signal to noise ratio of 100dB is stunning. I can't imagine what kind of
silent listening room it would take for anyone to have a chance of
differentiating between equipment S/N ratios of 100dB and anything greater.
Instruments themselves make more noise than that.

Orchestral music should have a dynamic range of about 60dB from ppp to fff -
and at that, some listeners at live concerts will have difficulty hearing
the ppp sections.

If the recording has a dynamic range of 60dB or less, then equipment with an
S/N ratio of 100dB will have the noise 40dB quieter than the quietest audio
sections.

If the recording has a dynamic range greater than 60dB, then throw it away
and get something played by performers who know how to play their
instruments properly ... listening to music isn't supposed to be difficult.

Tim