David Holgate wrote in message ...
The message
from "Trevor Wilson" contains these words:

**It doesn't bother me, one bit, how far you shove your head into the sand.
It is your problem, not mine, that you care not one bit for logic and
reason. If you want to buy *any* piece of audio equipment, without first
listening to it, you deserve exactly what you are likely to receive.

Good luck. Because that is what you are relying on.

I doubt is the situation is often as simple as not caring for logic and
reason. Few audiophiles are in the position of being able to audition a
wide range of valve gear.

**Just I would never marry a woman, or buy an automobile without a
proper 'test drive', nor would I (or any sane person) buy a piece of
audio equipment, without a suitable test. Had the original poster
decided on a (say) Quad II, then I could understand, as he has already
experienced one. Assuming that a valve amplifier will solve his
problems, is, IMO, a rather foolish thought.


New gear (of any quality) seems to be priced way out of Martin's budget
range, and be offered for sale secondhand very infrequently (and snapped
up very quickly). Apart from Nick's suggestions about kits, I would
suggest that he contact some reliable dealers as a serious buyer, and
then be prepared for a long wait. Audio engineers who work on valve
equipment may also offer some leads.

**His budget is set at less than the level of one decent output
transformer, let alone a whole amplifier. He may well be advised to
broaden his selection process to include some decent SS amps.


Meanwhile, his choices a trawl the web and the mags (luck needed
there too) and ask for advice from ngs like this one, where wider
experience can be drawn on.

FWIW, I notice that there is a company which advertises in HiFi World
(www.audioclassics.co.uk) with powers (£260) and preamps (£190) but I
have no personal knowledge of their products.


**Me either, but at those prices, they're likely to be Chinese
products. My experience with Chinese valve amps has, thus far, not
been overly good. None (I've examined) use decent output transformers.

Trevor Wilson

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Assuming that a valve amplifier will solve his
problems, is, IMO, a rather foolish thought.

That depends entirely on what his 'problems' are. If 'lack of a valve
amplifier' is one, then acquiring same will solve it.


**His budget is set at less than the level of one decent output
transformer,

How hi is the fi of that?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Trevor,

Did the thought ever flutter across your mind, that there is
a possibility that, in fact, your opinion of my decision is
a matter of superlative indifference to me? I can barely
contain my apathy. I await the next episode of your lonely campaign
with all the interest afforded a fly dying on a window sill by a couple
in mid-shag.



Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

"David Holgate" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Trevor Wilson" contains these
words:

**It doesn't bother me, one bit, how far you shove your head into the
sand.
It is your problem, not mine, that you care not one bit for logic and
reason. If you want to buy *any* piece of audio equipment, without first
listening to it, you deserve exactly what you are likely to receive.

Good luck. Because that is what you are relying on.

I doubt is the situation is often as simple as not caring for logic and
reason. Few audiophiles are in the position of being able to audition a
wide range of valve gear.


Yes, very few.



New gear (of any quality) seems to be priced way out of Martin's budget
range,


A budget of £350 precludes almost *any* 'new gear of any quality' (SS, valve
or whatever) although, spent wisely, it is enough for a wide range of
worthwhile secondhand stuff, IMO.....


and be offered for sale secondhand very infrequently (and snapped
up very quickly).


Yes, weird that isn't it? :-)


Apart from Nick's suggestions about kits,


Do you mind......


I would
suggest that he contact some reliable dealers as a serious buyer, and
then be prepared for a long wait. Audio engineers who work on valve
equipment may also offer some leads.

Meanwhile, his choices a trawl the web and the mags (luck needed
there too) and ask for advice from ngs like this one, where wider
experience can be drawn on.

FWIW, I notice that there is a company which advertises in HiFi World
(www.audioclassics.co.uk) with powers (£260) and preamps (£190) but I
have no personal knowledge of their products.


Or he could just grab summat quick off eBay and scratch that 'valve
itch'........!! :-)

(Who knows? It might even be a Chinese PP amp with KT88s in it....???)

:-)

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
m...
David Holgate wrote in message
...
The message
from "Trevor Wilson" contains these
words:

**It doesn't bother me, one bit, how far you shove your head into the
sand.
It is your problem, not mine, that you care not one bit for logic and
reason. If you want to buy *any* piece of audio equipment, without
first
listening to it, you deserve exactly what you are likely to receive.

Good luck. Because that is what you are relying on.

I doubt is the situation is often as simple as not caring for logic and
reason. Few audiophiles are in the position of being able to audition a
wide range of valve gear.

**Just I would never marry a woman, or buy an automobile without a
proper 'test drive',


The trouble with 'test driving' women or cars is that you've got to be
comfortable with the idea that you are highly unlikely to be the only one
who's done it..... ;-)


nor would I (or any sane person) buy a piece of
audio equipment, without a suitable test.


OK, I agree with that entirely but needs must when the devil drives.
Martin/Fleetie has a limited budget and *wants* a valve amp. He's got an
itch and he needs to scratch it - it's that simple.


Had the original poster
decided on a (say) Quad II, then I could understand, as he has already
experienced one. Assuming that a valve amplifier will solve his
problems, is, IMO, a rather foolish thought.


I'm Hertfordshire born and Hertfordshire bred (traditionally 'strong in the
arm and thick in the head') and we have a saying: "You may not marry the
woman you love but, with a bit of luck, you'll love the one you
marry".....!!

(Means feck-all these days, but there you go! :-)

What I'm saying is that if Martin gets his valve amp** for his available
budget, it will have been no mean feat and I suspect he will be chuffed to
f*ck with it! His overall appreciation of it will more than compensate for
any deficiencies and he will *enjoy* it. As I think he has stated, if it
don't 'hit the spot' he'll move it on. Where's the harm in that?

There's a damn sight more satisfaction to be had from an audio setup when it
is a the 'end-user stage' than a damn silly line on a graph. (Not true at
the design stage, obviously!) For some it only takes a little blue LED or 2
(or 20) in the right place to make a piece of audio gear 'perfect'......!!!

(This from someone who greatly prefers valves to SS and who has just bought
a 'scope and a little SS amp off eBay to scratch his 'scope itch and his
little SS amp itch.... :-)


**Me either, but at those prices, they're likely to be Chinese
products. My experience with Chinese valve amps has, thus far, not
been overly good. None (I've examined) use decent output transformers.


Don't bloody start on that one.......

;-)


**OK, has already got (or it's on its way) but he isn't saying yet!

Keith G wrote:

... and who has just bought a 'scope ...

What did you get?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

"Fleetie" wrote in message
...
Trevor,

Did the thought ever flutter across your mind, that there is
a possibility that, in fact, your opinion of my decision is
a matter of superlative indifference to me?

**Absolutely! I have been discussing the folly of purchasing decisions in
the area of hi fi, since before you were a twinkle in your dad's eye. Your
particular approach is not unlike that of many who precede you. You are not
the first and you will not be the last. For the record: I was building valve
amps long before you were conceived and can always appreciate the qualities
of a well designed, well executed (valve) product. Mediocrity has no place
in my audio world. In the realm of valve amplifiers, there are some
inevitable costs associated with many of the components in those amplifiers.
Those costs preclude any new, cheap valve amps. BTW: IMO, the Quad II is a
fine sounding amplifier (after suitable rebuilding, of course), when used
within its limits. It is almost the equal of this:
http://europe.rotel.com/products/specs/rb03.htm

Having said all that, I always hold the hope that some of what I say will
eventually penetrate. Maybe. There are several immutable facts in this
business:

* People who buy audio equipment, without first evaluating the product/s
deserve all the problems they are likely to encounter.
* Very high quality valve amps (ARC VT100, et al) sound almost
indistinguishable from very high quality SS amps (Krell et al).
* Cheap valve amps sound very different from very high quality (SS or valve)
amps.
* Good quality, inexpensive SS amps sound very similar to very high quality
(SS or valve) amps.

What does that tell you?

I can barely
contain my apathy. I await the next episode of your lonely campaign
with all the interest afforded a fly dying on a window sill by a couple
in mid-shag.

**You think, because I am the only one pointing out that the Emperor has no
clothes, that I am alone in my opinions? Dream on.

The problem associated with cheap valve amplifiers, is well known. Output
transformers. Output transformers completely dominate the sound of valve
amps. A quality output transformer will typically run to around 200-500
Squid. And you need two of them.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

... and who has just bought a 'scope ...

What did you get?


This one (eBay No.) 3819029867

I don't suppose it's much cop as scopes go, but as you can see it's the
whole beeswax - scope, signal generator, probes and books. A 'learning kit'
in one go!

It was a lot cheaper than most and I'm assured it's in good working order by
a nice old boy who's bringing it here to straight-swap it for some of my
'spare vinyl'!!

;-)

Keith G wrote:

I don't suppose it's much cop as scopes go, but as you can see it's
the whole beeswax - scope, signal generator, probes and books. A
'learning kit' in one go!

Seems to be an SE Labs SM111 - 18MHz twin trace, apparently. I think that
should be fast enough for any AF stuff you want to do.


It was a lot cheaper than most and I'm assured it's in good working
order by a nice old boy who's bringing it here to straight-swap it
for some of my 'spare vinyl'!!

Sounds like a good deal - the 31 quid eBay price is a bargain.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Trevor Wilson wrote:

* People who buy audio equipment, without first evaluating the
product/s deserve all the problems they are likely to encounter.

Why?


The problem associated with cheap valve amplifiers, is well known.
Output transformers. Output transformers completely dominate the
sound of valve amps. A quality output transformer will typically run
to around 200-500 Squid. And you need two of them.

What is it that makes the good ones cost so much?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk