Keith G wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote



Attempting to produce a valve amp down to mid-fi prices, is doomed to
fail, either you can't do it, or you end up with something that just
echo's some of the assumptions that people make about what a valve amp
sounds like.



Hence kits and DIY. (I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that even the WAD
kits **** all over similarly priced 'mid fi' SS gear like Roksan, Arcam,
Cyrus etc.) But I'm inclined to disagree that *all* valve amps produced to
mid-fi prices (say, £500-1,500) are failures without having heard any of
them. Call it my instincts....



No I am not suggesting that at all, however I wouldn't call a transistor
amp that cost £600 mid-fi, my definition of mid-fi was that range up to
about £500. You can get a very capable SS amp for £500, I don't think
you will see much of a commercial valve amp for that.

--
Nick

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote



Attempting to produce a valve amp down to mid-fi prices, is doomed to
fail, either you can't do it, or you end up with something that just
echo's some of the assumptions that people make about what a valve amp
sounds like.



Hence kits and DIY. (I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that even the
WAD
kits **** all over similarly priced 'mid fi' SS gear like Roksan, Arcam,
Cyrus etc.) But I'm inclined to disagree that *all* valve amps produced
to
mid-fi prices (say, £500-1,500) are failures without having heard any of
them. Call it my instincts....



No I am not suggesting that at all, however I wouldn't call a transistor
amp that cost £600 mid-fi, my definition of mid-fi was that range up to
about £500.


OK, different ideas of lo/mid-fi.

Perhaps I'm confusing 'fi' and 'end' - I would consider most amps up to £500
as 'lo end', £500 -1,500 as 'mid end' and anything over that getting on
towards 'high end'. Of, course, 'end' has got bugger all to do with
'fidelity' which I think can move independantly of price.....

.. You can get a very capable SS amp for £500, I don't think
you will see much of a commercial valve amp for that.

True, but I think it needs to be remembered that a Far Eastern amp could be
compared to a Western amp costing at least twice the price based on
production costs (labour, premises, availablity of home-grown glass and
other components etc.). This is why I asked what the trannies were like on
the Ella you built - not much else matters to anyone looking to get into
valves on a budget and who isn't able/doesn't want to build.

I see an opportunity here for 'refinishers' - someone to buy Chinese amps in
bulk (it's the delivery charges that bump the prices up) and swap, say, the
OPTs (and possibly power trannies) to enhance their performance much the
same way as a certain Cambridge firm 'rebuilds' brand new Indian Enfield
motorcycles into a much better machine (rebore/hone, new pistons and
electronic ignition for example).

Fark sight quicker to do that and end up with summat that certainly looks
the part than bugger about paying silly UK prices for fancy fascias and gold
knobs......

(Now, I got the garage and nearly 2 whole rolls of solder.......??? ;-)

Keith G wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...

Keith G wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote




Attempting to produce a valve amp down to mid-fi prices, is doomed to
fail, either you can't do it, or you end up with something that just
echo's some of the assumptions that people make about what a valve amp
sounds like.



Hence kits and DIY. (I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that even the

WAD

kits **** all over similarly priced 'mid fi' SS gear like Roksan, Arcam,
Cyrus etc.) But I'm inclined to disagree that *all* valve amps produced

to

mid-fi prices (say, £500-1,500) are failures without having heard any of
them. Call it my instincts....



No I am not suggesting that at all, however I wouldn't call a transistor
amp that cost £600 mid-fi, my definition of mid-fi was that range up to
about £500.



OK, different ideas of lo/mid-fi.

Perhaps I'm confusing 'fi' and 'end' - I would consider most amps up to £500
as 'lo end', £500 -1,500 as 'mid end' and anything over that getting on
towards 'high end'. Of, course, 'end' has got bugger all to do with
'fidelity' which I think can move independantly of price.....

. You can get a very capable SS amp for £500, I don't think

you will see much of a commercial valve amp for that.


True, but I think it needs to be remembered that a Far Eastern amp could be
compared to a Western amp costing at least twice the price based on
production costs (labour, premises, availablity of home-grown glass and
other components etc.). This is why I asked what the trannies were like on
the Ella you built - not much else matters to anyone looking to get into
valves on a budget and who isn't able/doesn't want to build.

Well, I have to confess, I didn't actually try to measure the
performance of the ella. It wasn't mine, and I think the keen owner may
have woried about thrashing it into dummy loads. They do look a bit
"agricultural", but on a short listen sounded ok, though with less bass
than my WAD 6550.

http://www.triode-systems.com/photos...-largeview.jpg


I see an opportunity here for 'refinishers' - someone to buy Chinese amps in
bulk (it's the delivery charges that bump the prices up) and swap, say, the
OPTs (and possibly power trannies) to enhance their performance much the
same way as a certain Cambridge firm 'rebuilds' brand new Indian Enfield
motorcycles into a much better machine (rebore/hone, new pistons and
electronic ignition for example).

Its a thought, but it does depend on just what they are like. One of the
problems I see with the Chinese amps is the lack of a service
department, what do you do if one dies ?


Fark sight quicker to do that and end up with summat that certainly looks
the part than bugger about paying silly UK prices for fancy fascias and gold
knobs......

(Now, I got the garage and nearly 2 whole rolls of solder.......??? ;-)


One way to pass the time :-)

--
Nick

I see an opportunity here for 'refinishers' - someone to buy Chinese amps in
bulk (it's the delivery charges that bump the prices up) and swap, say, the
OPTs (and possibly power trannies) to enhance their performance much the
same way as a certain Cambridge firm 'rebuilds' brand new Indian Enfield
motorcycles into a much better machine (rebore/hone, new pistons and
electronic ignition for example).

Its a thought, but it does depend on just what they are like. One of the
problems I see with the Chinese amps is the lack of a service
department, what do you do if one dies ?

I have been considering exactly this.

If or when I get bored of the (presumably admittedly cheap-ish,
as valve amps go) sound from the YaQin (if it ever arrives...), then
it's on a lovely shiny chassis; why not rebuild the circuit
completely differently "under the hood"? Assuming I can get some
decent advice on some better circuits, and maybe I can....
Maybe even stick different valves up top, providing the sockets
are right?

Win-win! Lovely shiny gold chassis; much better circuit, maybe.

But if the damn thing ever does show up, I reckon I'll leave it be
for a while.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

Its a thought, but it does depend on just what they are like. One of the
problems I see with the Chinese amps is the lack of a service
department, what do you do if one dies ?

What's to die? We're not talking ICs here!

So a resistor or cap might die. Replace it.

Transformers are unlikely to die (I hope; at least not soon!)

Valves... Buy some more.

I don't see a big problem here. Maybe that's just my ignorance
though.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

You can get a very capable SS amp for £500, I don't think you will see much of
a commercial valve amp for that.

These days you can get all manner of good stuff on ebay for under £500 - it's
almost all coming out of China but it's damn good value and pretty well thought
out.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:


True, but I think it needs to be remembered that a Far Eastern amp could
be
compared to a Western amp costing at least twice the price based on
production costs (labour, premises, availablity of home-grown glass and
other components etc.). This is why I asked what the trannies were like
on
the Ella you built - not much else matters to anyone looking to get into
valves on a budget and who isn't able/doesn't want to build.

Well, I have to confess, I didn't actually try to measure the
performance of the ella. It wasn't mine, and I think the keen owner may
have woried about thrashing it into dummy loads.



Yes and I gather from our earlier correspondence the guy's as happy as a dog
with 2 dicks with it - I'm sure he doesn't need anyone telling him if it did
'measure' a bit ****e......

:-)

"Fleetie" wrote


Its a thought, but it does depend on just what they are like. One of the
problems I see with the Chinese amps is the lack of a service
department, what do you do if one dies ?


You fix it.

(They all die from to to time - even SS gear ain't exempt....)



I have been considering exactly this.

If or when I get bored of the (presumably admittedly cheap-ish,
as valve amps go) sound from the YaQin (if it ever arrives...), then
it's on a lovely shiny chassis; why not rebuild the circuit
completely differently "under the hood"? Assuming I can get some
decent advice on some better circuits, and maybe I can....
Maybe even stick different valves up top, providing the sockets
are right?


Hmmm, bit quick to condemn this poor little bugger methinks it appears you
ain't even got it yet.....!!



Win-win! Lovely shiny gold chassis; much better circuit, maybe.

But if the damn thing ever does show up, I reckon I'll leave it be
for a while.


Good.

Part, if not most, of the reason a lot of people are wandering back to
valves is because they are getting fed up with the mushy/grey/boring sound
of a lot of the SS equipment that's floating about these days. To buy a
valve amp is not to seek more of the same but to get something which is
totally different and hopefully a lot more satisfying. This may take a while
to grow on you (or indeed it may not), I do hope you'll give it a fair
chance to prove it's worth.....

(At least, come the time you can't resist the urge to 'modify' it, the point
to point wiring of a lot of the Chinky amps will lend itself readily to
homebrew experimentation and tweaking.)


** The downside of eBay - hanging around when you expect a delivery and
being out when one turns up!!

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Hole punches for transformers? Like, big square shapes?


No, but nothing to stop you using them for 'starter holes' is there???

Tell you what is useful for odd shaped and even regular shaped holes in
ally is using a router designed for wood use!. I have a cheap trend one
for some 30 quid and some cheap bits for same. There is a very small dia
bit that has lasted very well cutting all manner of shapes in 16 SWG
ally sheet. Even if you waste a few, their quite cheap from the DIY
sheds and do work very well...

**I'd never thought of using a router for aluminium, but, given that I
regularly cut aluminium with my TCT blade compound mitre saw, I guess it
should be OK. I would suggest that some lubricant might be a smart idea
though. Aluminium tends to stick to blades.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 06:34:03 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Hole punches for transformers? Like, big square shapes?


No, but nothing to stop you using them for 'starter holes' is there???

Tell you what is useful for odd shaped and even regular shaped holes in
ally is using a router designed for wood use!. I have a cheap trend one
for some 30 quid and some cheap bits for same. There is a very small dia
bit that has lasted very well cutting all manner of shapes in 16 SWG
ally sheet. Even if you waste a few, their quite cheap from the DIY
sheds and do work very well...

**I'd never thought of using a router for aluminium, but, given that I
regularly cut aluminium with my TCT blade compound mitre saw, I guess it
should be OK. I would suggest that some lubricant might be a smart idea
though. Aluminium tends to stick to blades.

Recommended cutting speed for aluminium is 400 feet per minute, with a
feed per cut of .003 inches. Stick somewhere near that, and it
shouldn't smear. A coolant is vital, though.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com