"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

Any time you want to post a pic of the Air Scouts next to your other
gear, I'm up for looking at it... ;-)

Er, camera battery needs recharging....

That only takes a few hours - you should have something by this evening...


Only takes one hour but the charging unit's gone missing now.....


I'm not getting into this 'linearity' thing until I've heard a triode
amp (built, bought, borrowed or blagged) on my own setup.

I've no doubt that they're very linear while one is within the
largely-linear portion of the curve - my point was that keeping it clean
will restrict the power that it can put out.


Yep - 4 watts in SE mode.....

This is all *very* interesting to me. The Japs with presumably smallish
rooms (like most of us Brits) seem to like the lower powered amps on the
infeasibly large and very sensitive/rare/expensive speakers and talk about
'Zen', 'soul', 'emotion', 'lifelike' etc. Others (Colonials mostly) seem to
prefer the 'arc-welder and two ironing boards' approach, presumably due to
much larger room sizes?

As my 'listening room' is now tiny (due to the arrival of a space-eating
piano and endless telly these days) and the fact that I'm already leaning
toward the former approach, I'm hoping to get even more of the particular
qualities (imaging etc.) that I already prefer....(??)



I've been promised 'holographic' sounds blowing everything else into
the weeds. I already get/have got a superb 'soundstaging', imaging
and depth from a number of PP valve amps (far superior to any SS amp
I've ever heard, including Meridian and Krell amongst many others and
I gotta say I'm curious....

And I am too.


Me too - this 'linearity of triodes' for one thing, but the amp I'm
hoping to build has other features (direct coupled and posh/expensive
components) which are supposed to contribute to the sound quality.

Quality bits and a good circuit design must surely apply to any amplifier
type - it's the 'magic' of triodes that I'm curious about.


Yes, the component count is about as low as you could get, but I gather you
simply couldn't spend too much on the transformers!



I'm talking about a 4 watt amp here, Wally......

Which has less power than the 20W amp I have at present. So far as I can
tell, the 20W sounds very good at low to medium volume, but not when I
want
to crank it up. Years ago, I had a half-decent 40W SS amp, driving the
same
speakers, and I got more clean volume than I do at present. As I may have
mentioned in a post a month or three ago, I feel that the speakers are the
next thing to address in terms of improving the sound - I'm not sure that
a
super clean 4W amp would make a huge difference until that's done.


My take is that at *normal* listening levels on music where sound quality
counts in small to medium sized rooms (ie not 'rave/dance' music in some
derelict warehouse) on average sensitivity speakers most/all amps are only
producing a small number of watts. Where these 'low power' triode amps come
in, is by having high quality transformers and superior power supplies,
apparently.

OK, I'll stick my knob out:

This track has been recorded (from an LP) straight to my computer's Line In:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...enportline.mp3 (2.8 Mb)

This is the same track recorded over the open mic from my system:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...venportmic.mp3

Not sure what it shows as both these tracks burned to an Audio CDR sound at
least 'acceptable' to me, when played back on my system and ****e on my
computer playback, but that's another story. (OK, the open mic version is a
bit 'boggy' and a lot less well-defined but WTF - it's only Day 2 with the
mic and the room accoustics have come into the equation!!!) What I'll have
to do is record the same track with a triode amp and see if I can record any
discernable 'difference' with the open mic!!

(Valve everything btw, apart from the computer!)

All very interesting/confusing......!! :-)

Wally wrote:
Nick Gorham wrote:


Not to the same extent no.I am talking about the single device, not
that a amplifier made of them or any other active device can't be
linear.


So the thing that makes a triode amp better isn't the fact that the device
itself is linear, but that it takes less additional componentry to make it
operate in a linear fashion compared to other amps/devices?



Well I am not trying to speak in a authoritive way what makes a triode
"better", but I think your above point is somewhat circular. Its the
fact that its linear that means that it doesn't need additional
components to make it operate in a linear fashion. the few additional
components are not their to make it linear, but to make it a amplifier.
The one point is that it doesn't need global feedback to become
acceptably linear, but thats a whole new flame war.

--
Nick

Wally wrote:
Keith G wrote:


Any time you want to post a pic of the Air Scouts next to your other
gear, I'm up for looking at it... ;-)


Er, camera battery needs recharging....


That only takes a few hours - you should have something by this evening...



I'm not getting into this 'linearity' thing until I've heard a triode
amp (built, bought, borrowed or blagged) on my own setup.


I've no doubt that they're very linear while one is within the
largely-linear portion of the curve - my point was that keeping it clean
will restrict the power that it can put out.


The same is true for all amplifying devices, its just that most common
triodes are only capable of producing small (by SS standards) amounts of
power. Its quite possible to produce a 50 or 100w SET, just expensive.



I've been promised 'holographic' sounds blowing everything else into
the weeds. I already get/have got a superb 'soundstaging', imaging
and depth from a number of PP valve amps (far superior to any SS amp
I've ever heard, including Meridian and Krell amongst many others and
I gotta say I'm curious....


And I am too.


I will be interested to hear how Keith gets on with his project, I am
already convinced as to the benifit of SET's but that couls well be a
matter of collective insanity. I should also point out I have heard some
very average commercial amps of this type, so its not a case of anything
works as well, it still needs to be well done.


Me too - this 'linearity of triodes' for one thing, but the amp I'm
hoping to build has other features (direct coupled and posh/expensive
components) which are supposed to contribute to the sound quality.


Quality bits and a good circuit design must surely apply to any amplifier
type - it's the 'magic' of triodes that I'm curious about.



the problem IMHO is that the reason that the "magic" thing comes about
is when people hear some of them after hearing push pull amps, they
realise what the other amp is doing to the sound. A SET isn't without
faults, its got loads and loads, but its like the shock of hearing
electrostatics after conventional boxed speakers, and even worse getting
used to 'statics, and then going back to boxes. they all have
compromises, its just a different collection of compromises.


I'm talking about a 4 watt amp here, Wally......


Which has less power than the 20W amp I have at present. So far as I can
tell, the 20W sounds very good at low to medium volume, but not when I want
to crank it up. Years ago, I had a half-decent 40W SS amp, driving the same
speakers, and I got more clean volume than I do at present. As I may have
mentioned in a post a month or three ago, I feel that the speakers are the
next thing to address in terms of improving the sound - I'm not sure that a
super clean 4W amp would make a huge difference until that's done.



Maybe not, who can tell.

--
Nick

Keith G wrote:



My take is that at *normal* listening levels on music where sound quality
counts in small to medium sized rooms (ie not 'rave/dance' music in some
derelict warehouse) on average sensitivity speakers most/all amps are only
producing a small number of watts. Where these 'low power' triode amps come
in, is by having high quality transformers and superior power supplies,
apparently.

Well, despite me telling you repeatly that power supply and TX's are
important (which they are), in a way, they are not for the key sound
difference that SET's can give. The TX's and power supply are essential
if the amplifier is to have the normal HiFi capabilities of extended
frequency response, and good bass control

At the moment I am using a 1.5w amp, thrown together out of bits a
pieces, using a naff power supply, output transformers got from ebay at
£20 each, and valves designed to be vertical amplifiers from TV sets.

But I still find it more attarctive to use than my 40w 6550 PP. Maybe I
am just loosing it altogether.

(I should point out in my own defence the above amp is a stepping stone
to something more interesting though).

--
Nick

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Wally wrote:
Keith G wrote:


Any time you want to post a pic of the Air Scouts next to your other
gear, I'm up for looking at it... ;-)


Er, camera battery needs recharging....


That only takes a few hours - you should have something by this
evening...



I'm not getting into this 'linearity' thing until I've heard a triode
amp (built, bought, borrowed or blagged) on my own setup.


I've no doubt that they're very linear while one is within the
largely-linear portion of the curve - my point was that keeping it clean
will restrict the power that it can put out.


The same is true for all amplifying devices, its just that most common
triodes are only capable of producing small (by SS standards) amounts of
power. Its quite possible to produce a 50 or 100w SET, just expensive.



I've been promised 'holographic' sounds blowing everything else into
the weeds. I already get/have got a superb 'soundstaging', imaging
and depth from a number of PP valve amps (far superior to any SS amp
I've ever heard, including Meridian and Krell amongst many others and
I gotta say I'm curious....


And I am too.


I will be interested to hear how Keith gets on with his project, I am
already convinced as to the benifit of SET's but that couls well be a
matter of collective insanity. I should also point out I have heard some
very average commercial amps of this type, so its not a case of anything
works as well, it still needs to be well done.


Me too - this 'linearity of triodes' for one thing, but the amp I'm
hoping to build has other features (direct coupled and posh/expensive
components) which are supposed to contribute to the sound quality.


Quality bits and a good circuit design must surely apply to any
amplifier
type - it's the 'magic' of triodes that I'm curious about.



the problem IMHO is that the reason that the "magic" thing comes about
is when people hear some of them after hearing push pull amps, they
realise what the other amp is doing to the sound. A SET isn't without
faults, its got loads and loads, but its like the shock of hearing
electrostatics after conventional boxed speakers, and even worse getting
used to 'statics, and then going back to boxes. they all have
compromises, its just a different collection of compromises.


I'm talking about a 4 watt amp here, Wally......


Which has less power than the 20W amp I have at present. So far as I can
tell, the 20W sounds very good at low to medium volume, but not when I
want
to crank it up. Years ago, I had a half-decent 40W SS amp, driving the
same
speakers, and I got more clean volume than I do at present. As I may
have
mentioned in a post a month or three ago, I feel that the speakers are
the
next thing to address in terms of improving the sound - I'm not sure
that a
super clean 4W amp would make a huge difference until that's done.



Maybe not, who can tell.

--
Nick


Would be interesting to try one of the new Tripath chips side by side with
the above, someone on DIY Audio bought a ready made amp (stereo) for $30 and
said it had a very valve like sound.

Much the same as JLH did in 1969.

J

"Roy" rp wrote in message ...

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...

Why don't you ask to visit a speaker maker - somewhere like Spendor or
Harbeth, who make or source all their own parts and designs? The care
they
take needs to be seen.

Or ATC and see them winding their own coils.




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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One of my customers in a former job, in Telford made for the 'High End' and
I agree with the above.

However buying anything (not just audio), is just that and nothing more.
Making something is entirely different, esp with audio, not only do you get
something that sounds superb you also get an immense amount of satisfaction.

J

"Jem Raid" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Wally wrote:
Keith G wrote:


Any time you want to post a pic of the Air Scouts next to your other
gear, I'm up for looking at it... ;-)


Er, camera battery needs recharging....


That only takes a few hours - you should have something by this
evening...



I'm not getting into this 'linearity' thing until I've heard a triode
amp (built, bought, borrowed or blagged) on my own setup.


I've no doubt that they're very linear while one is within the
largely-linear portion of the curve - my point was that keeping it
clean
will restrict the power that it can put out.


The same is true for all amplifying devices, its just that most common
triodes are only capable of producing small (by SS standards) amounts of
power. Its quite possible to produce a 50 or 100w SET, just expensive.



I've been promised 'holographic' sounds blowing everything else into
the weeds. I already get/have got a superb 'soundstaging', imaging
and depth from a number of PP valve amps (far superior to any SS amp
I've ever heard, including Meridian and Krell amongst many others and
I gotta say I'm curious....


And I am too.


I will be interested to hear how Keith gets on with his project, I am
already convinced as to the benifit of SET's but that couls well be a
matter of collective insanity. I should also point out I have heard some
very average commercial amps of this type, so its not a case of anything
works as well, it still needs to be well done.


Me too - this 'linearity of triodes' for one thing, but the amp I'm
hoping to build has other features (direct coupled and posh/expensive
components) which are supposed to contribute to the sound quality.


Quality bits and a good circuit design must surely apply to any
amplifier
type - it's the 'magic' of triodes that I'm curious about.



the problem IMHO is that the reason that the "magic" thing comes about
is when people hear some of them after hearing push pull amps, they
realise what the other amp is doing to the sound. A SET isn't without
faults, its got loads and loads, but its like the shock of hearing
electrostatics after conventional boxed speakers, and even worse getting
used to 'statics, and then going back to boxes. they all have
compromises, its just a different collection of compromises.


I'm talking about a 4 watt amp here, Wally......


Which has less power than the 20W amp I have at present. So far as I
can
tell, the 20W sounds very good at low to medium volume, but not when I
want
to crank it up. Years ago, I had a half-decent 40W SS amp, driving the
same
speakers, and I got more clean volume than I do at present. As I may
have
mentioned in a post a month or three ago, I feel that the speakers are
the
next thing to address in terms of improving the sound - I'm not sure
that a
super clean 4W amp would make a huge difference until that's done.



Maybe not, who can tell.

--
Nick


Would be interesting to try one of the new Tripath chips side by side with
the above, someone on DIY Audio bought a ready made amp (stereo) for $30
and
said it had a very valve like sound.

Much the same as JLH did in 1969.

J

http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/jlhsound.htm