On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 00:01:48 +0000 (UTC)
"David" wrote:

(BBC monitor LS1 fans may now smile smugly)

Is that the same as the Radford monitor 1 ?

BUT they
need vast amounts of amplifier power to produce any response below 100Hz

No **** ;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:11:11 +0000, Roy wrote:


"Form@C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 15:47:40 +0000, Fish wrote:

I'm moving to a smaller house soon and alas my present audio stuff
will need changing for a smaller, more neighbour-friendly set-up.

At present I have a Bryston pre/power combo (250-watter) and a pair of
large Dynaudio floorstanders. Nothing-special CD-player as imho
cd-players
are nothing special.


Sheesh - 250W is enough to cook on.... :-)

No, barely adequate.


Have a look at any mid-price, fairly sensitive, half-decent speakers &
couple them with a little pure class A amp. Valves are nice... (you
could even build your own! I've just built a MOSFET headphone amp that
would scale up quite easily. I bet it only cost me £30 or so if you
include the bits from the "scrap box".) You may be surprised at how
little power you really need; most people can get away with about 3W to
5W per channel under real-life surroundings.

During the "average" situation maybe. Lets say a symphony orchestra
burbling away steadily. Then comes the climax. One or two huge peak
demands. Maybe several hundred watts. It is the 5W valve amp's inability
to cope with peak requirements without distortion which is it's weakness.


But in this case the OP wants a more neighbour-friendly system... :-) We
arn't allowed to aim at full concert-hall volume here! In any case, how
close would you be sitting to the orchestra to reach the dB level for
"several hundred watts" *at your seat*? Remember to take the sqrt of the
power each time you double the distance back. You tend to sit far closer
to speakers than you do to the orchestra in a concert hall. Try it. Use a
*good* low power amp and sensitive speakers. It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best. They
will be set up, probably anyway, to sound best at about 25-50% of full
output.


Remember that to double the volume you have
to square the power, so 250W is about twice the volume of a 25W amp,
which in turn is about twice the volume of a 5W amp! The more sensitive
your speakers are, the better.


No. Highly efficient speakers are generally less accurate than "lowish"
efficiency speakers. They tend to become unlinear at high outputs.


He almost certainly won't be using high outputs (or he'll be wearing
headphones!). Generally the speakers, if fairly efficient, will be working
toward the bottom end of their range. It is hard to find even a very high
efficiency speaker that maxes out at 5W! I doubt if he has room for decent
horns...

Bass shouldn't be a problem. He hasn't to produce too much simply because
that is the thing that makes for neighbour-*unfriendly* systems. He is
going to have to learn to live with less, but cleanly defined, bass. I
would look at medium-large shelf-mounting or small floor-standing
sealed-box designs, unless the OP can get to listen to a range of ported
types *in his own home*. Shop demos are notoriously unreliable and
sealed-boxes tend to be happier under a wider range of circumstances (its
not easy to find efficient sealed boxes though, but size helps).

--
Mick
http://www.nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini information
Also at http://www.mixtel.co.uk where the collection started.
Currently deserting M$ for linux... :-)

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:11:11 +0000, Roy wrote:


"Form@C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 15:47:40 +0000, Fish wrote:

I'm moving to a smaller house soon and alas my present audio stuff
will need changing for a smaller, more neighbour-friendly set-up.

At present I have a Bryston pre/power combo (250-watter) and a pair of
large Dynaudio floorstanders. Nothing-special CD-player as imho
cd-players
are nothing special.


Sheesh - 250W is enough to cook on.... :-)

No, barely adequate.


Have a look at any mid-price, fairly sensitive, half-decent speakers &
couple them with a little pure class A amp. Valves are nice... (you
could even build your own! I've just built a MOSFET headphone amp that
would scale up quite easily. I bet it only cost me £30 or so if you
include the bits from the "scrap box".) You may be surprised at how
little power you really need; most people can get away with about 3W to
5W per channel under real-life surroundings.

During the "average" situation maybe. Lets say a symphony orchestra
burbling away steadily. Then comes the climax. One or two huge peak
demands. Maybe several hundred watts. It is the 5W valve amp's inability
to cope with peak requirements without distortion which is it's weakness.


But in this case the OP wants a more neighbour-friendly system... :-) We
arn't allowed to aim at full concert-hall volume here! In any case, how
close would you be sitting to the orchestra to reach the dB level for
"several hundred watts" *at your seat*? Remember to take the sqrt of the
power each time you double the distance back. You tend to sit far closer
to speakers than you do to the orchestra in a concert hall. Try it. Use a
*good* low power amp and sensitive speakers. It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best. They
will be set up, probably anyway, to sound best at about 25-50% of full
output.


Remember that to double the volume you have
to square the power, so 250W is about twice the volume of a 25W amp,
which in turn is about twice the volume of a 5W amp! The more sensitive
your speakers are, the better.


No. Highly efficient speakers are generally less accurate than "lowish"
efficiency speakers. They tend to become unlinear at high outputs.


He almost certainly won't be using high outputs (or he'll be wearing
headphones!). Generally the speakers, if fairly efficient, will be working
toward the bottom end of their range. It is hard to find even a very high
efficiency speaker that maxes out at 5W! I doubt if he has room for decent
horns...

Bass shouldn't be a problem. He hasn't to produce too much simply because
that is the thing that makes for neighbour-*unfriendly* systems. He is
going to have to learn to live with less, but cleanly defined, bass. I
would look at medium-large shelf-mounting or small floor-standing
sealed-box designs, unless the OP can get to listen to a range of ported
types *in his own home*. Shop demos are notoriously unreliable and
sealed-boxes tend to be happier under a wider range of circumstances (its
not easy to find efficient sealed boxes though, but size helps).

--
Mick
http://www.nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini information
Also at http://www.mixtel.co.uk where the collection started.
Currently deserting M$ for linux... :-)

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:27:50 GMT
"Form@C" wrote:

It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best.

what?

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:27:50 GMT
"Form@C" wrote:

It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best.

what?

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 11:09:48 +0000, Ian Molton wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:27:50 GMT
"Form@C" wrote:

It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best.

what?

Sorry, it wasn't very clear was it? What I meant to say is that "high"
power amps are usually designed and set up to produce their best results
an appreciable way up to their rated power output. They won't perform at
their best at a very low percentage of that level. I *know* that many are
*supposed* to be class A at low levels, but they are generally not
designed as class A amps, and are not really running as such (the output
stage quiescent current is usually too low to allow correct class A
operation on a class AB amp). Thus it is a mistake to judge low-power
audio systems by simply turning down the volume on existing "high" power
equipment & changing the speakers for more sensitive ones.

--
Mick
http://www.nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini information
Also at http://www.mixtel.co.uk where the collection started.
Currently deserting M$ for linux... :-)

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 11:09:48 +0000, Ian Molton wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:27:50 GMT
"Form@C" wrote:

It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best.

what?

Sorry, it wasn't very clear was it? What I meant to say is that "high"
power amps are usually designed and set up to produce their best results
an appreciable way up to their rated power output. They won't perform at
their best at a very low percentage of that level. I *know* that many are
*supposed* to be class A at low levels, but they are generally not
designed as class A amps, and are not really running as such (the output
stage quiescent current is usually too low to allow correct class A
operation on a class AB amp). Thus it is a mistake to judge low-power
audio systems by simply turning down the volume on existing "high" power
equipment & changing the speakers for more sensitive ones.

--
Mick
http://www.nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini information
Also at http://www.mixtel.co.uk where the collection started.
Currently deserting M$ for linux... :-)

"Form@C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:11:11 +0000, Roy wrote:
..

During the "average" situation maybe. Lets say a symphony orchestra
burbling away steadily. Then comes the climax. One or two huge peak
demands. Maybe several hundred watts. It is the 5W valve amp's inability
to cope with peak requirements without distortion which is it's
weakness.


But in this case the OP wants a more neighbour-friendly system... :-) We
arn't allowed to aim at full concert-hall volume here! In any case, how
close would you be sitting to the orchestra to reach the dB level for
"several hundred watts" *at your seat*? Remember to take the sqrt of the
power each time you double the distance back. You tend to sit far closer
to speakers than you do to the orchestra in a concert hall. Try it. Use a
*good* low power amp and sensitive speakers. It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best. They
will be set up, probably anyway, to sound best at about 25-50% of full
output.

No that's nonsense. Most power amps are running at a fraction of their RMS
max (let alone peak max) most of the time. Let me quote you an example.

I listened to a pair of ATC SCM10s driven by an AVI 250W/ch amp with a power
meter attached. Listenening at realistic (not thunderous) levels to Sibelius
Violin Concerto, the quiet introduction drew barely a watt per channel with
a few moments of maybe 5w. The orchestral tutti (2 very loud chords) drew an
instantaneous 400W per channel.

Roy.




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"Form@C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 22:11:11 +0000, Roy wrote:
..

During the "average" situation maybe. Lets say a symphony orchestra
burbling away steadily. Then comes the climax. One or two huge peak
demands. Maybe several hundred watts. It is the 5W valve amp's inability
to cope with peak requirements without distortion which is it's
weakness.


But in this case the OP wants a more neighbour-friendly system... :-) We
arn't allowed to aim at full concert-hall volume here! In any case, how
close would you be sitting to the orchestra to reach the dB level for
"several hundred watts" *at your seat*? Remember to take the sqrt of the
power each time you double the distance back. You tend to sit far closer
to speakers than you do to the orchestra in a concert hall. Try it. Use a
*good* low power amp and sensitive speakers. It's no use turning down a
100-200W monster amp because you arn't running them at their best. They
will be set up, probably anyway, to sound best at about 25-50% of full
output.

No that's nonsense. Most power amps are running at a fraction of their RMS
max (let alone peak max) most of the time. Let me quote you an example.

I listened to a pair of ATC SCM10s driven by an AVI 250W/ch amp with a power
meter attached. Listenening at realistic (not thunderous) levels to Sibelius
Violin Concerto, the quiet introduction drew barely a watt per channel with
a few moments of maybe 5w. The orchestral tutti (2 very loud chords) drew an
instantaneous 400W per channel.

Roy.




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In article , Form@C
wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 11:09:48 +0000, Ian Molton wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:27:50 GMT "Form@C" wrote:

It's no use turning down a 100-200W monster amp because you arn't
running them at their best.

what?

Sorry, it wasn't very clear was it? What I meant to say is that "high"
power amps are usually designed and set up to produce their best results
an appreciable way up to their rated power output.

That isn't my own experience. Nor was it what I intended when designing
200Wpc power amps myself. :-)

The purpose of the high power (and voltage/current) ratings is to ensure
the amp can be used in wider range of circumstances, hence encompassing
higher powers and more awkward/less efficient loads. Thus the idea is that
the amp should sound good over a wider range of levels, from low to high.
If it does not sound right at low power, then something is wrong with it,
irrespective of its power rating.


They won't perform at their best at a very low percentage of that level.
I *know* that many are *supposed* to be class A at low levels, but they
are generally not designed as class A amps, and are not really running
as such (the output stage quiescent current is usually too low to allow
correct class A operation on a class AB amp).

In general, class AB amps are not designed as class A or class B. This
isn't really a matter of the power rating as such. However...

The quiescent current in most of the good high-power amps I have known was
similar to, or higher, than in lower power amps. Hence your statement about
"usually too low" could be argued to probably apply more to low power amps
than to high power ones. High power amps should work nicely at low powers
in terms of the 'class A at low powers' argument. Also, using the devices
with lower levels of collector-emitter (or equivalent) variation in
fractional terms also should help here. I would not personally take this
"class A at low power" argument very far, though, as the reality isn't
really described by this. The problems may be elsewhere.

Thus it is a mistake to judge low-power audio systems by simply turning
down the volume on existing "high" power equipment & changing the
speakers for more sensitive ones.

Depends upon the amp and the speakers. :-)

FWIW I use +200Wpc amps with speakers like ESL63's and before that ESL57's.
Been doing this for around 20 years, now. Generally I only play at quite
low mean power levels. The results sound fine to me even though I never go
anywhere near 200 Wpc. Having an amp that can drive difficult loads means
the amp is finding this task easy, even when I once used parallel pairs of
ESL57's for a while. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html