On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:53:16 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a difference,
but one point is that while both wires see the same voltage, the cable
to the treble posts are only carrying the current produced by the
treble part of the signal.

However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a competent
piece of work.

Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty connectors
then maybe this could make a difference.

Yes indeed - and there are twice as many connections to a bi-wired
speaker...........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"RJH" wrote

snip

Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a
while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a
go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm
afraid
I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.
There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything!



Don't feel too bad about this - Samuel Johnson (1709-84) has already
covered
the subject of bi-wiring with the following:

"All argument is against it; but all belief is for it".........






Umm, I think he was referring to the 'afterlife' at the time cos I'm sure
Samuel never ever biwired his own system.

Mike

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"RJH" wrote

snip

Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a
while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a
go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm
afraid
I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.
There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything!



Don't feel too bad about this - Samuel Johnson (1709-84) has already
covered
the subject of bi-wiring with the following:

"All argument is against it; but all belief is for it".........






Umm, I think he was referring to the 'afterlife' at the time cos I'm sure
Samuel never ever biwired his own system.

Mike

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:45:32 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"RJH" wrote in message
...
Hi - I've just bought some speakers, JMLab Chorus 715, marvellous. Anyway,
something in the setup instructions intrigued me - bi-wiring "reduces or
eliminates any problem caused by the bass drivers feeding any signal back
to
the amplifier. This signal intermodulates and spoils the sound quality of
the midrange and treble". Er, what?!

I don't bother with biwiring as a rule, but should this cause a rethink?

Rob




Heh heh! Good old Rob - we haven't had a 'Biwiring' thread here for, ooh,
let's see - must be days now!

It's really quite simple, reading those instructions has already caused to
you rethink. My suggestion is that, if you already have the necessary wire
kicking about, you try it yourself and see if it makes any difference to
you. If not, then I suggest you leave the speakers bi-wired and keep 'all
bases covered'. (Placebo Effect alone makes this the 'better' option....
:-)

Biwiring is a bit like Ghost Stories - no conclusive proof either way** so
the myths continue and have done so long enough for fair-minded people to
think 'it's gone on for so long now, there *has* to be someting in it.....'
(My take is that there is almost certainly a difference, especially if there
are poor quality or faulty components in the equation, but that it is likely
to be so far outside the audible range as be entirely academic.)

Out of interest, on the subject of bi and tri-wiring, Ruark say "Where
possible we recommend you take advantage of this facility as the only extra
cost is that of one or two extra pairs of speaker cable. etc etc." They make
*no* mention of sound quality (improvements or otherwise) whatsoever. I
think they are also just 'covering all the bases' and by implication they
would appear to not expect you to spend too much on the speaker cables, in
any case.....


** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:45:32 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"RJH" wrote in message
...
Hi - I've just bought some speakers, JMLab Chorus 715, marvellous. Anyway,
something in the setup instructions intrigued me - bi-wiring "reduces or
eliminates any problem caused by the bass drivers feeding any signal back
to
the amplifier. This signal intermodulates and spoils the sound quality of
the midrange and treble". Er, what?!

I don't bother with biwiring as a rule, but should this cause a rethink?

Rob




Heh heh! Good old Rob - we haven't had a 'Biwiring' thread here for, ooh,
let's see - must be days now!

It's really quite simple, reading those instructions has already caused to
you rethink. My suggestion is that, if you already have the necessary wire
kicking about, you try it yourself and see if it makes any difference to
you. If not, then I suggest you leave the speakers bi-wired and keep 'all
bases covered'. (Placebo Effect alone makes this the 'better' option....
:-)

Biwiring is a bit like Ghost Stories - no conclusive proof either way** so
the myths continue and have done so long enough for fair-minded people to
think 'it's gone on for so long now, there *has* to be someting in it.....'
(My take is that there is almost certainly a difference, especially if there
are poor quality or faulty components in the equation, but that it is likely
to be so far outside the audible range as be entirely academic.)

Out of interest, on the subject of bi and tri-wiring, Ruark say "Where
possible we recommend you take advantage of this facility as the only extra
cost is that of one or two extra pairs of speaker cable. etc etc." They make
*no* mention of sound quality (improvements or otherwise) whatsoever. I
think they are also just 'covering all the bases' and by implication they
would appear to not expect you to spend too much on the speaker cables, in
any case.....


** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:41:58 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Molton" wrote in message

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:02:06 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

Excellent synopsis! :-)

My pleasure :-)

The practical downside to biwiring is that it can train people to *hear*
differences that aren't there. Once you get people to listen errrrrr
creatively, there's a ready market for green CD pens, magic oils, fancy
interconnects, the whole nasty ball of gelled snake oil.

I've tried to stay out of this I really have. I know the objectivists will
shoot me down but here goes again.

Over the years I've heard of many things to experiment with that I simply
had no understanding of why they could make the slightest difference. Many
things (to my ears) confirmed my sceptic thinking and completely failed to
show any difference to me at all. These included...

Green pens, reversing speaker lead direction, absolute phase. None of
these produced any effect detectable to me.

However, that is not always the case. There are some things that I'm sure
I can hear and one I've proved to myself in a double blind (amp in a
different room to listening panel) though all the others I have not done a
DB test.

The proved one (to me and friends at least) was a mosfet power amp
sounding quite different depending on the object beneath it. I have
written an account of this on the NG before and don't wish to do this
again. I have no explanation as to why it sounded different but it did and
it was not subtle either.

I'm also absolutely sure that the two sets of speaker leads I'm using on
my speakers ATM sound different. Some of you may say that if that is the
case, then at least one must have unacceptable levels of RCL and I do have
an electronics background and can see why they say this.

I don't have either an inductance or a capacitance meter but my Fluke DMM
shows nothing significant in resistance terms about the cables. One cable
is a figure of 8 construction (QED XTUBE XT350) and the other is simply
lightly twisted (Chord Odyssey).

Okay so bare with me that they sound different for now. Yes Stewart, I
know that dog don't bark!!! The one QED has the better bass and the other
has the better HF so you can guess how they are connected.

My amplifier has not blown up in the last 6 months (probably will now)
that I've been doing this and I prefer the sound. I don't really care why
or how. If I enjoy the sound more then that's it. It doesn't really matter
if its in my head, an unknown effect or a particular combination of RCL.
My HiFi is for music enjoyment, not a science paper.

If I was going to buy a speaker I would listen and buy what I liked would
I not? So why should I not do the same with cables, provided they don't
destroy the amp even if they do have high resistance or something?

I for one do not believe science knows everything there is to know about
anything. Science is just the tested best theory of the day, it is not a
truth.


Cheers,

Bob.

Great Bob! If it sounds good then it sounds good, wether the
scientists approve or not.

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:41:58 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Molton" wrote in message

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:02:06 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

Excellent synopsis! :-)

My pleasure :-)

The practical downside to biwiring is that it can train people to *hear*
differences that aren't there. Once you get people to listen errrrrr
creatively, there's a ready market for green CD pens, magic oils, fancy
interconnects, the whole nasty ball of gelled snake oil.

I've tried to stay out of this I really have. I know the objectivists will
shoot me down but here goes again.

Over the years I've heard of many things to experiment with that I simply
had no understanding of why they could make the slightest difference. Many
things (to my ears) confirmed my sceptic thinking and completely failed to
show any difference to me at all. These included...

Green pens, reversing speaker lead direction, absolute phase. None of
these produced any effect detectable to me.

However, that is not always the case. There are some things that I'm sure
I can hear and one I've proved to myself in a double blind (amp in a
different room to listening panel) though all the others I have not done a
DB test.

The proved one (to me and friends at least) was a mosfet power amp
sounding quite different depending on the object beneath it. I have
written an account of this on the NG before and don't wish to do this
again. I have no explanation as to why it sounded different but it did and
it was not subtle either.

I'm also absolutely sure that the two sets of speaker leads I'm using on
my speakers ATM sound different. Some of you may say that if that is the
case, then at least one must have unacceptable levels of RCL and I do have
an electronics background and can see why they say this.

I don't have either an inductance or a capacitance meter but my Fluke DMM
shows nothing significant in resistance terms about the cables. One cable
is a figure of 8 construction (QED XTUBE XT350) and the other is simply
lightly twisted (Chord Odyssey).

Okay so bare with me that they sound different for now. Yes Stewart, I
know that dog don't bark!!! The one QED has the better bass and the other
has the better HF so you can guess how they are connected.

My amplifier has not blown up in the last 6 months (probably will now)
that I've been doing this and I prefer the sound. I don't really care why
or how. If I enjoy the sound more then that's it. It doesn't really matter
if its in my head, an unknown effect or a particular combination of RCL.
My HiFi is for music enjoyment, not a science paper.

If I was going to buy a speaker I would listen and buy what I liked would
I not? So why should I not do the same with cables, provided they don't
destroy the amp even if they do have high resistance or something?

I for one do not believe science knows everything there is to know about
anything. Science is just the tested best theory of the day, it is not a
truth.


Cheers,

Bob.

Great Bob! If it sounds good then it sounds good, wether the
scientists approve or not.

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:16:06 +0000
Nutter wrote:

** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

I guess your hearing lives up to the image suggested by your 'handle'...

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:16:06 +0000
Nutter wrote:

** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

I guess your hearing lives up to the image suggested by your 'handle'...

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:23:03 +0000
Nutter wrote:

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

I'd put money on any audible difference being down to the cabling itself, not the fact the speakers were bi-wired.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.