A certain Kurt Hamster, of uk.rec.audio "fame", writes :
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:51:29 +0100, Chesney Christ used
to say...

The idea that a cable has a "signature" is absurd. Do you have any
documentary evidence that supports this concept ? Speakers and amps
unquestionably have qualities of their own, but cables do not. They're
just bits of wire.

So how does NACA4/5, Linn K20 and Naim amps fit into that equation then?

What do you mean ? I am not really arguing about amps, I just pointed
out that it's easier to believe that they would have audible differences
in some circumstances. There is more than one way to skin a cat after
all. But that can't happen with cables. They either conduct current to
specification, or they do not.

The NACA design of cables certainly have a signature.

I am assuming the cable doesn't have any passive components embedded in
it.

--

"Jokes mentioning ducks were considered particularly funny." - cnn.com

" Because in that case, a listener would be able to reliably detect the
difference between two cables.

Yes I understand this but you completly missed the point I was trying to put
across.
Since a length of cable has to exsist between amp and speaker (except for
active types where the amps are as near as damn it to the speakers) how can
you say it is not affecting the sound that comes out of the amp in any way
taking your point that all cables 'sound' the same?
And given that they all sound the same who is to say a cable has no
signature. I.E what you put in you get out.


Unless we actually welded (I dont mean that absolutley Arny) the
speakers to our amps terminals how can we (you) say what signatures
cables
have/dont have?

The idea that a cable has a "signature" is absurd. Do you have any
documentary evidence that supports this concept ?

Do you have any documentry evidence to state otherwise?

Speakers and amps
unquestionably have qualities of their own, but cables do not. They're
just bits of wire.

Different bits of wire though. Some just plain copper some oxygen free
copper some OFC & silver plated some stranded copper some solid copper some
solid silver some stranded silver. Some pure OFC some cryogenically treated.

They all have their own resistance( although I expect this over the typical
runs to be nominal), inductance, capacitance, outer sheefing, propogation.

But not so horribly flawed as sighted tests............

Take this for instance.... You connect up a cable of xyz cost having no
idea
how it will sound (bear with me.. read on).

That's the idea, yes.

You sit down and make judgements on the sound. You decide in which areas
this cable excels e.g Air, ambience,bass depth,eb and flo, musicality or
whatever.

Sure you do.

After listening you put a sonic 'signature' on the cable.

How does someone "put a signature" on cable ?

Tough to begin with as you have no guidelines to go on. But basically
through playing around with cables and seeing how your system sounds
compared with the last. If you feel you are getting greater clarity hearing
finer details, more bass depth, punch or what have you, you then grade each
cable to the merits of the system. You then say cable xyz has this effect to
my system and cable abc has another effect.

It's akin to turntable cartridge wires that being at the front of the chain
show up the greatest differences albeit only a couple of inches long!

The 'signature' is then written for each cable. The 'signature' written
seems to ring true for most equipment connected to it. So in this respect
you can decide if the virtues of that cable is correct for the system. For
example if your using a punchy amplifier and speakers you would most likely
not want to add a punchy sounding cable to it. You would want one that gives
a more laid back approach or leaner bass response.


So my question is... how can one put a sonic 'signature' on each cable
when
one has no clue before hand what that sonic signature will be.

Your brain does it by interfering with your perception of the sound,
even though no audible difference in the two compared sounds exists.

Hmm I was hoping for a more credible answer than this.
I could believe this if I had read a review or two or the dealer promised me
xyz from the cable but for the brain to magically endlessly dream up
different sounds to me is also absurd.

To take this scenario further it then suggests that every piece of equipment
you listen to sounds the way you want it to sound or sounds different to
someone else which it clearly doesnt...

Usually when you're dreaming you have no idea that you're actually in a
dream, and you can have dreams which are genuinely pleasurable (or
disturbing) - I am sure you have. The brain is really good at making up
things that seem very real indeed.

Yes thats true but dreams are normally based around your real life rather
than making up 'stories' with unknown surroundings and people although they
may seem rather distorted at times.

To take for example Nordost's Valhalla cable that on first and subsequent
hearings *I* hear enormous strides in power of the bass department in
comparison to ALL the other Nordost cables previously released.

That may be true, in which case there are two possibilities : (a) the
cable manufacturers have added something to the cable to interfere with
the sound,

I like this one... what did you have in mind?

or (b) your expectation of a different sound has enabled you
to perceive one, even though it does not exist.

Nah does not comprehend.

When using newer brands of washing machine powder do you always find
that your clothes were even whiter than before ?

Nah some are ****e lol

How could I
possibly have concieved that it would sound so different from the rest of
the range?

Well, you clearly did conceive it. The question is, was the sound really
different ?

Yes I heard an enormous difference everything was much tidier much more grip
on the music with a bass drive to die for.

And if it was, what caused the difference ?

Ask the guy/s who made the cable.

What in hells bells made me hear dollops more of bass power over
say a silky smooth midrange.

Judicious adjustment of the bass and treble controls for one.


He he he I think your digging deep now.

Steve

" True story - I once lent someone my old Hifi. Since this guy had a habit
of
keeping things for a little longer than he should I put my name on the
whole lot, cables included.

I like that... humour :-)

This made me think. Steve - Do you think magic cable can do anything to
the
sound an EQ can't?

Yes, it can be laid back, provide more drive, more immediacy, a 'faster'
sound, more airy, greater musicality,sterile,sweet, better leading edge
definition... and more that escapes me at present... a bit rusty on the oll
lingo!

Steve

"
Stevie, here you seem to say that no cable has a signature. Isn't this in
contradiction to your normal on magic cable.

No it's been read wrong once again!
In my eyes or even everyones surely.... a cable that has no signature is an
ideal and therefore transparent to the audio world.
We all would like something 'perfect' in the audio chain but it does not
exsist does it not?


Why weld? I know you're making a point, I just don't get *what* your
point is.

To remove the cable from the equation... we then can say if any speaker
cable has a 'signature' or not by which I mean how does it (if atall)
degrade the sound when cable xyz is connected inbetween.

Take this for instance.... You connect up a cable of xyz cost having
no idea how it will sound (bear with me.. read on).
You sit down and make judgements on the sound. You decide in which
areas this cable excels e.g Air, ambience,bass depth,eb and flo,
musicality or whatever.

These are all very vague terms! You are really saying nothing definite
about a cable to describe the sound like this, to the point of being
almost meaningless!

A cable AFAIK interferes with the output signal like every component in the
audio chain. So the more music you hear at the speakers the less 'signature'
a cable has. I define a cable in this way. How much of the music is actually
possible from a system to end up at the speakers when talking about speaker
cables can only be defined ( I think) by lugging the speakers directly to
the output terminals.
However I read some review where it was considered that longer lengths of
cable were preferable to short!
..

I take it (not being one to read advertising junk) what you are saying is
that your observations matched the manufacturers' claim on the
'signature' of Valhalla cable.

No I dont even know what the manufacturer claims are! It's just what I heard
it was my first airing of a new cable and nothing was said how it would
sound.
However I've read a review since hearing and if lighting dont strike me down
soon it talked of the same experience (Hi-Fi+)

Steve

A certain Stevie Boy, of uk.rec.audio "fame", writes :

The idea that a cable has a "signature" is absurd. Do you have any
documentary evidence that supports this concept ?

Do you have any documentry evidence to state otherwise?

I'm afraid that doesn't constitute an argument. Extraordinary claims -
that mere cables alone (which do not include embedded components) can
alter the sound - require extraordinary evidence.

unquestionably have qualities of their own, but cables do not. They're
just bits of wire.

Different bits of wire though. Some just plain copper some oxygen free
copper some OFC & silver plated some stranded copper some solid copper some
solid silver some stranded silver. Some pure OFC some cryogenically treated.

Can you explain how this makes an audible difference ?

They all have their own resistance( although I expect this over the typical
runs to be nominal), inductance, capacitance, outer sheefing, propogation.

None of which create audible differences, at least not in any cable
matching the properties of a standard 79-wire copper jobbie.

After listening you put a sonic 'signature' on the cable.

How does someone "put a signature" on cable ?

Tough to begin with as you have no guidelines to go on.

Yes, only voodoo witchcraft.

Your brain does it by interfering with your perception of the sound,
even though no audible difference in the two compared sounds exists.

Hmm I was hoping for a more credible answer than this.

Not at all - the placebo effect is well-documented.

I could believe this if I had read a review or two or the dealer promised me
xyz from the cable but for the brain to magically endlessly dream up
different sounds to me is also absurd.

Why ? As I said, the placebo effect is well-documented. Every human
being does this, including me. If I'm about to splash out major bucks on
a piece of audio equipment, I'll always do a blind test first as I know
my mind can interfere with my perception of the sound. Picking any
random piece of equipment, everything from the type of paintwork, to the
position of the controls on the surface, the brand name, the weight, the
coloured lights on the front - they can all interfere with your
judgement in ways that you won't be aware of.

To take this scenario further it then suggests that every piece of equipment
you listen to sounds the way you want it to

No, it is more subtle than that. If the manufacturer sticks a large
price tag on something and makes outrageous claims about it, it's
possible that your perception of the sound may be altered as a result.
The emperor and his clothes, etc.

Usually when you're dreaming you have no idea that you're actually in a
dream, and you can have dreams which are genuinely pleasurable (or
disturbing) - I am sure you have. The brain is really good at making up
things that seem very real indeed.

Yes thats true but dreams are normally based around your real life rather
than making up 'stories'

On the contrary, small kids dream about "monsters" all the time. And
they're genuinely frightened about them too, sometimes so badly that
psychotherapy will be required. And yet, this is all in the mind.
Monsters and ghosts don't exist.

That may be true, in which case there are two possibilities : (a) the
cable manufacturers have added something to the cable to interfere with
the sound,

I like this one... what did you have in mind?

It's not unknown for cable manufacturers to insert components in the
wire, so that they'll sound different. Of course, you can insert similar
components in the signal path using any other wire, and you'll get the
same result.

When using newer brands of washing machine powder do you always find
that your clothes were even whiter than before ?

Nah some are ****e lol

See what I mean ?

Aren't you put off by the way the cable manufacturers are coming out
with a new, improved wire every year ? The way electrical signals
propagate along wires doesn't change.

Well, you clearly did conceive it. The question is, was the sound really
different ?

Yes I heard an enormous difference everything was much tidier much more grip
on the music with a bass drive to die for.

And if it was, what caused the difference ?

Ask the guy/s who made the cable.

I'd rather do a double blind test. That way, almost all bias can be
removed from the equation. You should do it yourself - you may find
yourself saving money. What do you have to lose by trying it ?

--

"Jokes mentioning ducks were considered particularly funny." - cnn.com

A certain Stevie Boy, of uk.rec.audio "fame", writes :

No it's been read wrong once again!
In my eyes or even everyones surely.... a cable that has no signature is an
ideal and therefore transparent to the audio world.
We all would like something 'perfect' in the audio chain but it does not
exsist does it not?

On the contrary, the weakest link in the chain is that flap of clothy
skin and bone between your auditory nerves and the outside world, ie
your ear.

These are all very vague terms! You are really saying nothing definite
about a cable to describe the sound like this, to the point of being
almost meaningless!

A cable AFAIK interferes with the output signal like every component in the
audio chain.

Not audibly.

So the more music you hear at the speakers the less 'signature'
a cable has.

If a cable is interfering with the amplitude of the sound, or the
dynamic range of the sound then there is something badly wrong (and it's
probably not the cable).

All of this seems moot considering that in the recording studio where
the work was recorded, such fancy cables were probably not used. So much
of the loss through "common" cables that you are describing will have
already been suffered by the recorded work ..

--

"Jokes mentioning ducks were considered particularly funny." - cnn.com

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
I'm afraid that doesn't constitute an argument. Extraordinary claims -
that mere cables alone (which do not include embedded components) can
alter the sound - require extraordinary evidence.

So a cable with high cpacitance won't affect the sound?

But why would you use a cable with high capacitance since it's known this
could make a difference to the sound?

So a cable with high inductance won't affect the sound?

But why would you use a cable with high inductance since it's known this
could make a difference to the sound?

Do either of the above require "embedded components" to affect the
sound?

If it's sold as speaker cable, then this is effectively what it has.

--
*Acupuncture is a jab well done.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Stevie Boy in uk.rec.audio:

Yes, it can be laid back, provide more drive, more immediacy, a
'faster' sound, more airy, greater musicality,sterile,sweet, better
leading edge definition...

Quite some claim!

What do you mean by 'provide more drive'? this seems the least likely of
your descriptions, wouldn't that need the cable to transfer energy above
100%? (or else be an active component!)

If there is so much to distinguish cables, why not select a cable and some
music that particuarly highlights one ef these traits and take Pinkerton up
on his offer?

--
Jim H

Stevie Boy in uk.rec.audio:

No it's been read wrong once again!
In my eyes or even everyones surely.... a cable that has no signature
is an ideal and therefore transparent to the audio world.
We all would like something 'perfect' in the audio chain but it does
not exsist does it not?

Not surprising I read it wrong when the bit you snipped is "I would argue
this point", seemingly agreeing with "None of them [have a sig], under blind
conditions".

But sure, an ideal cable would have no signiture, unless that's a signiture
in itself.

I take it (not being one to read advertising junk) what you are
saying is that your observations matched the manufacturers' claim on
the 'signature' of Valhalla cable.

No I dont even know what the manufacturer claims are! It's just what I
heard it was my first airing of a new cable and nothing was said how
it would sound.
However I've read a review since hearing and if lighting dont strike
me down soon it talked of the same experience (Hi-Fi+)

I think the bit you snipped down here *may* have explained that

--
Jim H

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:08:32 +0100, "Stevie Boy"
wrote:


" Because in that case, a listener would be able to reliably detect the
difference between two cables.

Yes I understand this but you completly missed the point I was trying to put
across.
Since a length of cable has to exsist between amp and speaker (except for
active types where the amps are as near as damn it to the speakers) how can
you say it is not affecting the sound that comes out of the amp in any way
taking your point that all cables 'sound' the same?
And given that they all sound the same who is to say a cable has no
signature. I.E what you put in you get out.

Anyone who has actually tried to differentiate two cables in a blind
test, that's who........

Your sophistry is easily deflected by comparing a normal length of
speaker cable with a six-inch length, using monoblock power amps.

Unless we actually welded (I dont mean that absolutley Arny) the
speakers to our amps terminals how can we (you) say what signatures cables
have/dont have?

The idea that a cable has a "signature" is absurd. Do you have any
documentary evidence that supports this concept ?

Do you have any documentry evidence to state otherwise?

All of science, engineering and common sense states otherwise. If you
make an extraordinary claim, then *you* have the burden of proof.

Speakers and amps
unquestionably have qualities of their own, but cables do not. They're
just bits of wire.

Different bits of wire though. Some just plain copper some oxygen free
copper some OFC & silver plated some stranded copper some solid copper some
solid silver some stranded silver. Some pure OFC some cryogenically treated.

And they all sound the same.............

They all have their own resistance( although I expect this over the typical
runs to be nominal), inductance, capacitance, outer sheefing, propogation.

And they all sound the same (unless having *gross* differences in
basic LCR parameters) such as comparing 26AWG with 12AWG.

So my question is... how can one put a sonic 'signature' on each cable when
one has no clue before hand what that sonic signature will be.

Your brain does it by interfering with your perception of the sound,
even though no audible difference in the two compared sounds exists.

Hmm I was hoping for a more credible answer than this.
I could believe this if I had read a review or two or the dealer promised me
xyz from the cable but for the brain to magically endlessly dream up
different sounds to me is also absurd.

Try some blind comparisons, you'll be amazed at the power of the human
brain!

To take this scenario further it then suggests that every piece of equipment
you listen to sounds the way you want it to sound or sounds different to
someone else which it clearly doesnt...

Yup, that's often the case.

You seem unwilling to believe that human imagination can provide very
powerful illusions of difference, and yet you are prepared to believe
in some magical mystical property of wire which causes sonic
differences? There is *massive* evidence for the former, and *zero*
for the latter. I think you need to try some blind tests, including
some 'false sighted' AA tests, to discover the truth of the matter.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering