In message , Graeme Wall
writes
On 18/11/2017 08:23, Graeme wrote:

With 'popular' (including pop/rock/country/whatever) music is not
the opposite true?* Whether we are discussing a recording made last
week or the Crystals in 1963, it is the live artist trying to
reproduce the sound record buyers hear on the LP/CD.

That won't work with Sgt Pepper and the many albums that followed it.

Surely that is exactly where it works? Sgt Pepper was an engineer
produced album, and the Beatles could never have played it live, to
sound like the album the public knew. Perhaps we are at cross purposes,
but I struggle to see how any live band could reproduce, on stage, the
same sound that had been created on a record by Phil Spector, George
Martin etc. Having said that, does it matter? People still love
hearing the Beatles thumping out Get Back on a roof, but it isn't the
same as track as released. Then again, does it matter? How many times
has Queen at Live Aid been played via YouTube? Fans love to listen to
their favourites whether live or as presented on disc, the fact that the
music will never be quite the same is irrelevant.
--
Graeme

In article ,
Graeme wrote:
In message , Mike Fleming
writes

The producer of a studio creation will be trying to create the sound
he feels is ideal, so it's only polite to try to reproduce that sound
accurately.

Not sure how well I can express myself here. I think two different
experiences are being discussed. Listening to 'classical' musical, it
is the sound engineer is trying to capture that live sound, to be
reproduced at home via CD.

With 'popular' (including pop/rock/country/whatever) music is not the
opposite true? Whether we are discussing a recording made last week or
the Crystals in 1963, it is the live artist trying to reproduce the
sound record buyers hear on the LP/CD.

In other words, the 'real' sound with classical is what we hear live.
With pop, the 'real' sound is decided by the engineer.

It is in both cases.

If you were to do a rule of thumb for a classical recording with no chance
to experiment or rehearse in the venue, you'd simply sling a stereo pair
above the conductor. Since he is the one who 'engineers' the balance of
the orchestra. But that's not a place any member of the audience can hear
the work from.

--
*Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/11/2017 09:43, Graeme wrote:
In message , Graeme Wall
writes
On 18/11/2017 08:23, Graeme wrote:

Â*With 'popular' (including pop/rock/country/whatever) music is not
theÂ* opposite true?Â* Whether we are discussing a recording made last
week orÂ* the Crystals in 1963, it is the live artist trying to
reproduce theÂ* sound record buyers hear on the LP/CD.

That won't work with Sgt Pepper and the many albums that followed it.

Surely that is exactly where it works?Â* Sgt Pepper was an engineer
produced album, and the Beatles could never have played it live, to
sound like the album the public knew.Â* Perhaps we are at cross purposes,
but I struggle to see how any live band could reproduce, on stage, the
same sound that had been created on a record by Phil Spector, George
Martin etc.

We are at cross purposes, I was addressing the remark about live artists
trying to reproduce the sound record buyers hear on the LP/CD.

Having said that, does it matter?

To me, not at all.

People still love
hearing the Beatles thumping out Get Back on a roof, but it isn't the
same as track as released.Â* Then again, does it matter?Â*Â* How many times
has Queen at Live Aid been played via YouTube?

25,806,265 times apparently!

Fans love to listen to
their favourites whether live or as presented on disc, the fact that the
music will never be quite the same is irrelevant.

Agreed

The thing about Sgt Pepper is that there was never going to be the
chance to hear it live.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In article , Mike Fleming
wrote:

A fair amount of non-classical music is performed for recordings only
and never played live. But you're rather making my point, the engineer
decides what the real sound is, so, if you want the real sound that the
engineer decided on, you need a high fidelity system.

Indeed. And for material like R3 broadcasts of concerts, having some idea
of what being there sounds like can help you to decide if what your hi-fi
is producing is a decent representation. Becoming familiar with the sound
of such performances in halls can be a useful guide.

However for some other types of recording, there will be no acoustic
'original' beyond what someone sitting at a mixing desk created as they
operated the controls to get a result they think will 'sell', or have
impact or please their target audience. Using a setup you would never get
to hear and which is unlike home hi-fi systems. In those cases you can't
access such a reference so just have to decide if you like the result or
not.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 12/11/2017 13:39, D.M. Procida wrote:
Now that the contents of a CD can be held in RAM, never mind in other
cheaper and still very fast digital storage, what does an expensive CD
player offer that a cheap transport and a decent digital-to-analog
converter cannot?

If DAC products can buffer seconds' or even minutes' worth of data, and
can stream it out to the actual DAC circuitry with GHz precision, there
doesn't seem to be much need any more for costly CD players.

Am I missing something?

Daniele

Not really.

However, if you can get a good deal on a top class CD player then it's always
there for future use whereas the cheaper alternatives might or might not last.
I got an ex-demo top of the range tecnics a few years ago for less than half
price and it does the job really well when needed.

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , Mike Fleming
wrote:

A fair amount of non-classical music is performed for recordings only
and never played live. But you're rather making my point, the engineer
decides what the real sound is, so, if you want the real sound that the
engineer decided on, you need a high fidelity system.

Indeed. And for material like R3 broadcasts of concerts, having some idea
of what being there sounds like can help you to decide if what your hi-fi
is producing is a decent representation. Becoming familiar with the sound
of such performances in halls can be a useful guide.

However for some other types of recording, there will be no acoustic
'original' beyond what someone sitting at a mixing desk created as they
operated the controls to get a result they think will 'sell', or have
impact or please their target audience. Using a setup you would never get
to hear and which is unlike home hi-fi systems. In those cases you can't
access such a reference so just have to decide if you like the result or
not.

It's quite true that you can't hear a reference for certain material,
because you'll never hear what (say) Kraftwerk heard in their studio in
1976 or what Laurie Anderson heard in her head.

However, if you know what an ordinary human voice sounds like, and a
piano and a violin, and you know that your hi-fi does a good job of
rendering those in your sitting room, you can listen to Kraftwerk or
Laurie Anderson and have a reasonable degree of confidence that you're
hearing a good rendition of what you should be hearing.

On top of that, even if you listen to something that has no reference,
so that you don't know whether a certain pleasing colouration is part of
it or just a lucky anomaly of your playback system, you can hear the
same thing on another system and realise that one reveals more than the
other, or one is able to present details that the other cannot, and
that's another reasonable and not entirely subjective basis for judging
that one might be better than the other - even in the absence of of a
"real" sound to make your comparisons with.

Daniele

On 17/11/2017 10:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Not quite, Jim. Pop type recordings are mixed by their engineers for the
very best sound they can get in their control room. To say they will sound
just as good on a 'music centre' or whatever isn't the case.

AIUI sometimes they are mixed to sound the best they can _on_ _poor_
_equipment_ which compromises the reproduction on something good.

snip

Andy

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
However for some other types of recording, there will be no acoustic
'original' beyond what someone sitting at a mixing desk created as they
operated the controls to get a result they think will 'sell', or have
impact or please their target audience. Using a setup you would never get
to hear and which is unlike home hi-fi systems. In those cases you can't
access such a reference so just have to decide if you like the result or
not.

It's actually quite rare to have a totally electronic recording.
Most have vocals. Many real drums, guitars, and so on. All of which picked
up by microphones in exactly the same way as a classical piece.

--
*Reality is the illusion that occurs due to the lack of alcohol *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 17/11/2017 10:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Not quite, Jim. Pop type recordings are mixed by their engineers for
the very best sound they can get in their control room. To say they
will sound just as good on a 'music centre' or whatever isn't the case.

AIUI sometimes they are mixed to sound the best they can _on_ _poor_
_equipment_ which compromises the reproduction on something good.

Same applies to many classical recordings and broadcasts. If nothing else
the dynamic range is usually reduced.

--
*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

It's actually quite rare to have a totally electronic recording. Most
have vocals. Many real drums, guitars, and so on. All of which picked up
by microphones in exactly the same way as a classical piece.

Agreed. But may be partioned off to some extent with panels of acoustic
materials, etc. Hence there may not be one overall acoustic, etc. So no
quite "the same way" as something like a R3 concert broadcast.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html