CHLO-E
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

FWIW I've recently been transferring and de-clicking some Ellington
'Radio Transcriptions' discs released on Decca London in the late
1970s. These are remarkably good compared with what you'd expect from
commercial 78s from the time (1946-7). Sadly, the shop only had
volumes 1-4 so I didn't get volume 5. But not bad for 3 quid a pop. :-)

You seem to have found an excellent source for interesting music at a
very reasonable price.

Alas, now gone. The shop only existed here on a month-by-month rental
whilst the property owner looked for a tenant willing to pay more for a
longer term. So the shop appeared, then vanished again at short notice less
than a year later. It was, I think, and offshoot from a Glasgow shop. But
it isn't practical for me to travel somewhere like that.

Do you clean the LP's before transfer?

In general I just use something like a parastat or preener. Then use a dust
bug. May use a zerostat if the weather is allowing static problems to
arise.

On occasion I have experimented with wet cleaning, but have tended to
conclude that if discs are that dirty from second-hand they'll have lots of
physical damage anyway.

Many shops that sell vinyl have a recording cleaning machine. My
favourite shop charges 1e (which includes a cup of coffee whiole you
wait)

No such shops in town. We are now back in the situation where the only
places to buy LPs is the charity shops that sell them second-hand in 'take
it or leave it' condition. They do advertise some in the window which they
think will be trendy and put a higher price on them. But I suspect this is
purely on the basis of what they see on the cover and have no idea about
condition, etc.

Some public libraries also offer the same service (but no coffee:-)

I might have to travel abroad for that! So far as I know, no local library
these days even offers Audio CDs, let alone any service for LP use! The
town library sold off their CDs a few years ago, and that was that.

The LPs I bought 'new' back in the day are all in good condition. The ones
I bought recently second-hand vary. But I decided that at 3 quid a go it
was simplest to accept some would be 'duds' and prove not worth the effort.
I looked in the shop for any obvious scratches, etc. Then took a punt on
ones that looked OK.

In practice I found that the results, statistically, varied with genre.

1) Pop LPs. Almost all very badly worn and scratched. Often ground-in dirt.
I stopped bothering after trying a few as the pattern was clear enough.
Death by Dansette. 8-]

2) Classical LPs. Much more varied. Some were 'as new' - i.e. as good as I
used to encounter when buying new. Others have lots of ticks and clicks
which are low-level but audible during quieter passages of music. They'd
have been masked on louder popular LPs, but showed up on during long quiet
passages. Experiments showed these were essentially marks in the vinyl. The
results can sound good. But may take a long time to fix most of the many,
many small audible clicks.

3) Jazz LPs. Again variable. But my impression is that either their owners
were more often more careful than 'pop' buyers, and/or the smaller ticks
and clicks weren't audible because the level of the music was higher than
on the classical LPs. (When using Audacity with such discs I can often see
ticks in the hf which I can't hear because the music is loud enough to
render them un-noticable. I may still remove some of them, but can decide
not to bother as I prefer.)

So after some initial expriments I focussed on buying 3 quid Jazz LPs.
Served the excellent purpose of letting me get a lot of Jazz I'd otherwise
never have decided to obtain. And made transcribing easier as the extent of
the noticable problems was lower than the other catagories.

How true any of that may be in general, I don't know. But it was what I
found from the LPs that were on offer here. Alas, no longer.

Given that now the big companies keep offerring box sets of old classical
recordings at about 2 quid a CD, I'm happy enough to buy Classical music
that way - depending on the choice on offer.

Maybe there are similar Jazz boxes. I have found out about a few - e.g. a
large Sidney Bichet box set I got a couple of years ago. The problem there
is finding out about them.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

CHLO-E
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
It is essential to have access to as many copies
of the original as you can lay your hands on.
Quite often metal matrices (mothers) were still
available. These were an excellent source of
cleanish audio and helped to speed up the
process. But, you could not mix shellac and
metals as a source for the same title.

You could actually read my post before replying.

My reply was to illustrate why you should not simply
declick (shorten) an analogue tape in the way you did.
and answered your question:

And I had already told you why the razor blade option was the only
practical one in this instance.

As I said you have absolutely no experience of broadcast and the time
scales involved, let alone budget constraints.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

CHLO-E
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,

In the "real world of broadcast", your plexi
screens around drummers, and lapel mics stuck
to the bridges of violins with BluTack, were
clearly not optimum solutions:-)

You never attend live music events, then?

Frequently. Often too as a player.

I play in both a classical ensemble and a big band.

I alaso mix FOH for a theatre musical group. So
probably altogether some thirty plus events a year,
and not a plexi screen or lump of BluTack in sight:-)

Odd. The very first time I saw personal mics clipped to violins was not on
TV, but the James Last band in a live performance. In the 1970s.

Do you have a string section in your big band? In your 'theatre group'?

--
*I don't feel old. I don't feel anything until noon. Then it's time for my nap.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

CHLO-E
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Given that now the big companies keep offerring box sets of old classical
recordings at about 2 quid a CD, I'm happy enough to buy Classical music
that way - depending on the choice on offer.

Maybe there are similar Jazz boxes. I have found out about a few - e.g. a
large Sidney Bichet box set I got a couple of years ago. The problem there
is finding out about them.

You mentioned Count Basie earlier. Do you have his 1957 album
"Atomic Mr Basie", which has some twelve excellent tracks, "Kid From
Red Bank", "After Supper", "Teddy The Toad", "Splanky" etc etc.

Just a couple of days ago, I came across a CD
entitled "The Complete Atomic Basie" which has twenty titles,
(all recorded for the original LP) eight of which were
not included on the original LP or CD. Highly recommended!

Iain

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In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I alaso mix FOH for a theatre musical group. So
probably altogether some thirty plus events a year,
and not a plexi screen or lump of BluTack in sight:-)

I have this vision of you enclosing the lead singer in a series of studio
acoustic screens on stage. All in the pursuit of 'perfect' sound.

Do you ban the set designer from the theatre? ;-)

--
*Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

CHLO-E
 

Jim Lesurf said:

No such shops in town. We are now back in the situation where the only
places to buy LPs is the charity shops that sell them second-hand in 'take
it or leave it' condition. They do advertise some in the window which they
think will be trendy and put a higher price on them. But I suspect this is
purely on the basis of what they see on the cover and have no idea about
condition, etc.

I think so. Maybe they vary ... I finally got rid of some of my old vinyl
last year. The first batch, I gave to the local Oxfam. One LP in particular
was so badly knackered I didn't even bother trying to rip it, just paid a
fiver for a cd reissue. The day after I gave it to Oxfam it was in the
window for a tenner. I really hope no-one bought it for the music, they'd
have felt really ripped off.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

CHLO-E
 

In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
I think so. Maybe they vary ... I finally got rid of some of my old vinyl
last year.

Bad timing with the latest vinyl 'revival' ;-)

Although I'm told many new buyers never actually play them. Purely for
display.

I've got one pal who 'got rid' of vinyl not long after CD came out. Then
went back to it after reading of a revival some years ago. Then got rid of
it again, with everything on his computer. And is now going to revive it
once more.

Perhaps I'm lucky in being too mean to discard something that still works
here. Still got working 1/4" tape, as well as LP.

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

CHLO-E
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

You mentioned Count Basie earlier. Do you have his 1957 album "Atomic
Mr Basie", which has some twelve excellent tracks, "Kid From Red Bank",
"After Supper", "Teddy The Toad", "Splanky" etc etc.

Just a couple of days ago, I came across a CD entitled "The Complete
Atomic Basie" which has twenty titles, (all recorded for the original
LP) eight of which were not included on the original LP or CD. Highly
recommended!

I've got the Roulette-branded 'Atomic' CD with five 'extra' tracks. And a
'Four classic albums' 2CD from Avid which I suspect is taken from LPs and
includes the 'Atomic' set. Plus various other Basie CDs and LPs. I've not
really tried to be 'completist' as I just get things as they might crop up.
Still just exploring, and finding that things I've never heard of can be as
interesting as names I've come to like!

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

CHLO-E
 

Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
I think so. Maybe they vary ... I finally got rid of some of my old vinyl
last year.

Bad timing with the latest vinyl 'revival' ;-)

I don't think so, I'm happy. Insofar as it's an issue of quality, I find
44.1k 16bit stereo is good enough for my 60+yearold ears (or if it isn't, I
don't miss what I never had before. I'll settle for it), and a lot of the
rest seems to be a Fashion Thing, which never bothered me much.

(There is a remainder - I have a friend who likes little-known rock bands,
who use their gigs to sell very expensive vinyl, which she likes to buy by
way of keeping her favourite bands viable. Kind of like crowd-funding but
with a souvenir. That bit seems like a resaonable idea and I approve of it,
but it's not what happens in my musical world; nor could I afford it).

Although I'm told many new buyers never actually play them. Purely for
display.

I was brought up in the world of 'classical', and still reckon music is for
the ears, not the eyes. Stamp-collecting of sleeves is Someone Else's
Problem.

I've got one pal who 'got rid' of vinyl not long after CD came out. Then
went back to it after reading of a revival some years ago. Then got rid of
it again, with everything on his computer. And is now going to revive it
once more.

Weird.

Perhaps I'm lucky in being too mean to discard something that still works
here. Still got working 1/4" tape, as well as LP.

I was orginally driven into digitising by getting upset at the way my 20yo
cassettes were becoming unplayable. And I've ended up with everything on a
hard disk and all visible in one big list (played via a raspberry pi running
MPD, thanks to help here last year. I still haven't found the perfect
client, but gmpc works well enough). As I said, I'm happy.

I didn't get rid of all the vinyl, I kept the ones with sleevenotes
containing info I might possibly want but couldn't face typing up. They're
under a bed upstairs, because that's the only reason for keeping them (plus
sentiment, in a few cases). I certainly don't intend to keep a deck running.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

CHLO-E
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,

In the "real world of broadcast", your plexi
screens around drummers, and lapel mics stuck
to the bridges of violins with BluTack, were
clearly not optimum solutions:-)

You never attend live music events, then?

Frequently. Often too as a player.

I play in both a classical ensemble and a big band.

I alaso mix FOH for a theatre musical group. So
probably altogether some thirty plus events a year,
and not a plexi screen or lump of BluTack in sight:-)

Odd. The very first time I saw personal mics clipped to violins was not on
TV, but the James Last band in a live performance. In the 1970s.

Both plexi and BluTack (or equivalent) were in
use in British TV well before that. I can remember
Phil Seaman (the finest British jazz drummer of
that era and a larger than life character with a
penchant for outrageous japes) commenting on
the poor sound from "sticky violins" in TV light
music broadcasts.
He gave a hilarious impression of an unsuspecting
player bowing frantically as the putty melted under
the set lights, and the mic slid into his/her lap.
He once took a rope ladder to a TV show with the
intent to scale the perspex wall around his drums while
the end credits were rolling :-) This would have
been about 1966.

Do you have a string section in your big band?

No, But saxophones double on woodwinds, and
flutes in particular, are just as vulnerable to leakage
as strings are. So the set up still needs great care.

In your 'theatre group'?

It's a theatre musical group.
Yes, we have strings quite often.


Iain

CHLO-E
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Iain wrote:
You seem to have found an excellent source for interesting music at a
very reasonable price.

Alas, now gone.

Shame:-( The going rate for decent LPs here is 25e. I go to fairs
in Stockholm and Copenhagen, the prices are usually much higher,
that this, but there is always a brisk trade.


Do you clean the LP's before transfer?

On occasion I have experimented with wet cleaning, but have tended to
conclude that if discs are that dirty from second-hand they'll have lots
of
physical damage anyway.

It is surprising how much muck you can wash out of what looks like a fairly
decent vinyl surface.

Many shops that sell vinyl have a recording cleaning machine. My
favourite shop charges 1e (which includes a cup of coffee whiole you
wait)

No such shops in town. We are now back in the situation where the only
places to buy LPs is the charity shops that sell them second-hand in 'take
it or leave it' condition. They do advertise some in the window which they
think will be trendy and put a higher price on them. But I suspect this is
purely on the basis of what they see on the cover and have no idea about
condition, etc.

Yes. There is such a shop in Richmond Surrey (my home ground)
They usually have a large stock of boxed Readers' Digest sets.
Often, one can see that the first and second discs have been played
while the rest of the discs have probably never been near the turntable.

The LPs I bought 'new' back in the day are all in good condition. The ones
I bought recently second-hand vary. But I decided that at 3 quid a go it
was simplest to accept some would be 'duds' and prove not worth the
effort.
I looked in the shop for any obvious scratches, etc. Then took a punt on
ones that looked OK.

That's a chance I would take any day of the week:-)

In practice I found that the results, statistically, varied with genre.

1) Pop LPs. Almost all very badly worn and scratched. Often ground-in
dirt.
I stopped bothering after trying a few as the pattern was clear enough.
Death by Dansette. 8-]

Yes indeed. Dansette and Newcastle Brown - a potent combination:-)

recordings at about 2 quid a CD, I'm happy enough to buy Classical music
that way - depending on the choice on offer.

Maybe there are similar Jazz boxes. I have found out about a few - e.g. a
large Sidney Bichet box set I got a couple of years ago. The problem there
is finding out about them.

Elusive Disc have an excelent catalogue,
http://www.elusivedisc.com/Browse-all-33s/products/904/


Not jazz, but the newly released David Bowie Five Years 1969-1973
is one of the landmarks for 2016 in the vinyl renaissance.

Iain

CHLO-E
 

In article ,
Richard
Robinson wrote:

I was orginally driven into digitising by getting upset at the way my
20yo cassettes were becoming unplayable. And I've ended up with
everything on a hard disk and all visible in one big list (played via a
raspberry pi running MPD, thanks to help here last year. I still haven't
found the perfect client, but gmpc works well enough). As I said, I'm
happy.

I didn't get rid of all the vinyl, I kept the ones with sleevenotes
containing info I might possibly want but couldn't face typing up.
They're under a bed upstairs, because that's the only reason for keeping
them (plus sentiment, in a few cases). I certainly don't intend to keep
a deck running.

I scan the sleeves and labels. Then keep the images in the same directory
as the audio from a given item. I've noticed that Audacious will then
display a thumbnail of the LP front cover if it is given a filename like
'Cover'. I don't bother with any 'management' system I just give the files
and directories meaningful names that make clear what the content may be.

You should keep the LPs. In my view, owning them is in a sense a 'key' to
being able to play the digitised version in moral terms. And at some future
point there is a risk you'll need the LP anyway.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

CHLO-E
 

This of course was why DBX recordings did not show the pumping effects of
dolby, since the noise was much more linear and moved with the sound more.

That is except for solo piano, where it tended to sound a bit like there
were loose crisps in the instrument sometimes.
Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

These show an interesting psychological effect. There is almost no top
in the original music, but add a bit of hiss and crackle, and our
brains shape it into the missing sibilants (or whatever), despite the
fact that it is there continuously.

How true. Some people comment on the apparent loss of hf on the
restored version. In actual fact the frequency response of the recording
systems in those days was approx 100Hz to 5kHz (five and a half octaves)
so there never was any real hf to speak of.

It is interesting too how the internal balance of the recording seems to
improve when the noise artifacts are removed. In this case the rhythm
guitar.

Iain

CHLO-E
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Odd. The very first time I saw personal mics clipped to violins was not on
TV, but the James Last band in a live performance. In the 1970s.

Both plexi and BluTack (or equivalent) were in
use in British TV well before that.

How do 'Plexi' and 'BluTack' relate in your mind? ;-)
But I can't answer for all of TV. Just my experience.
You might do well to stick to yours too.


I can remember
Phil Seaman (the finest British jazz drummer of
that era and a larger than life character with a
penchant for outrageous japes) commenting on
the poor sound from "sticky violins" in TV light
music broadcasts.

As opposed to not hearing them at all, you mean? ;-)

He gave a hilarious impression of an unsuspecting
player bowing frantically as the putty melted under
the set lights, and the mic slid into his/her lap.
He once took a rope ladder to a TV show with the
intent to scale the perspex wall around his drums while
the end credits were rolling :-) This would have
been about 1966.

Yes. He was a known heroin addict prone to weird behaviour and outbursts.
No real surprise you're quoting him. ;-)
But he wasn't (for obvious reasons) one of the session players common on
BBC TV orchestras.

Do you have a string section in your big band?

No, But saxophones double on woodwinds, and
flutes in particular, are just as vulnerable to leakage
as strings are. So the set up still needs great care.

Point missed again. Ah well.



In your 'theatre group'?

It's a theatre musical group.
Yes, we have strings quite often.

Playing against a heavy rock backing? Obviously totally boxed off with
studio screens. After all, nobody would want to see them.

--
*No husband has ever been shot while doing the dishes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

CHLO-E
 

On 09/01/2017 17:10, Jim Lesurf wrote:

You should keep the LPs. In my view, owning them is in a sense a 'key' to
being able to play the digitised version in moral terms. And at some future
point there is a risk you'll need the LP anyway.

I was asked to digitize some LPs recently, and after monitoring and
cleaning up
I've had enough Gilbert and Sullivan to last several lifetimes.
But the interesting thing is that the translucent EMI inner sleeves
(marked 6/80 - a date code?)
had become brittle and shattered as I removed the disc.
Perhaps it's the same strategy of built-in obsolescence that produced
foam surrounds.

--
Eiron.

CHLO-E
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

You should keep the LPs. In my view, owning them is in a sense a 'key' to
being able to play the digitised version in moral terms. And at some
future
point there is a risk you'll need the LP anyway.

Yes indeed. Keep the LP's. A CD inlay card (and magnifying glass) is
a poor substitute for a gatefold sleeve:-)

Iain

CHLO-E
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Iain wrote:
I can remember
Phil Seaman (the finest British jazz drummer of
that era and a larger than life character with a
penchant for outrageous japes) commenting on
the poor sound from "sticky violins" in TV light
music broadcasts.

Yes. He was a known heroin addict prone
to weird behaviour and outbursts.

Neverthless he was Britain's finest and busiest
jazz drummer, and highly regarded by everyone,
both then and now.

In addition to his brilliant musicianship, I always
found him to be polite, friendly and witty.

But he wasn't (for obvious reasons) one of the
session players common on
BBC TV orchestras.

Really?

Phil Seaman's career began in the late forties.
He died in 1972. The BBC had studios in London,
Birmingham., Manchester, Cardiff, Glasgow etc.
I am intrigued that a sound recordist working in
television drama should be so familiar with the
identities of thousands of musicians involved in
music production in so many locations over
such a long period of time:-)

Phil was resident drummer with the Jack Parnell
Orchestra (JP, himself a very talented drummer
was also Musical Director for ATV).

Ronnie Scott appeared regularly on BBC TV
which also made programmes from his club
in Frith Street. Phil Seaman played in Ronnie
Scott's band.

Phil also played under Laurie Holloway for the
first series of the Michael Parkinson Show on BBC.

He played regularly on BBC's Jazz Club (Radio II ?)
which was broadcast live from the Paris Theatre in
Regent St. Phil was almost a fixture there, as he was
drummer in the three most popular Britsh jazz groups,
those of Tubby Hayes, Stan Tracey and Ronnie Scott.
I had a season ticket:-)

When a jazz drummer was needed he was the player of
choice. He had several kits which his roadies use to take
from studio to studio in advance to help him keep
his busy schedule. He was in great demand (for obvious
reasons, Dave:-))

When West Side Story came to the UK, they needed a
musician who could play all tuned percussion, plus
timpany and drum kit. There were no classical players
who could play the jazz/rock kit parts, and few jazz/
rock players could read well enough, or play tuned
percussion.

The story is the Leonard Bernestein himself asked for
Phil Seaman.

Anyway, he did not audition but went straight into
rehearsal with the orchestra. Players were amazed
by his skill - he did not speak or ask questions,
he just watched the conductor, read the part, prima vista
and played faultlessly! The show ran for more than 1 000
performances. He played them all.

Besides being an incredibly talented musician, he was
also a remarkable wit. There are several versions of the
West Side Story "Gong" episode. Phil told it as follows:

There were long sections in the musical where he
had nothing to play. He used to put his sticks into
their bag, fold his arms, and lean back on his drum
stool with eyes shut. He was counting bars.

A deputy musical director thought he was asleep
and signalled in alarm to the bass player, who poked
Phil in the ribs with his bow. Startled, Phil fell from the
drum stool and crashed into a huge gong. It stopped
the show, and when the gong crash had finally faded,
Phil stood up and said in a loud voice:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, Dinner is served".

Iain.

CHLO-E
 

Eiron said:

But the interesting thing is that the translucent EMI inner sleeves
(marked 6/80 - a date code?) had become brittle and shattered as I removed
the disc. Perhaps it's the same strategy of built-in obsolescence that
produced foam surrounds.

It's a possible explanation, I'm not sure it's a necessary one. I had to
ditch a 30yo very good and much loved tent a couple of years back, likewise
because the (synthetic) fabric became brittle and split too badly to seem
worth fixing (or trusting). ... It could just be that decades-old synthetics
weren't perfect. Maybe "They" knew that, maybe they didn't, I don't know.
Nor do I know how long the contemporary-equivalent replacements will last.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

CHLO-E
 

On Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:20:15 -0600, Richard Robinson
wrote:

Eiron said:

But the interesting thing is that the translucent EMI inner sleeves
(marked 6/80 - a date code?) had become brittle and shattered as I removed
the disc. Perhaps it's the same strategy of built-in obsolescence that
produced foam surrounds.

It's a possible explanation, I'm not sure it's a necessary one. I had to
ditch a 30yo very good and much loved tent a couple of years back, likewise
because the (synthetic) fabric became brittle and split too badly to seem
worth fixing (or trusting). ... It could just be that decades-old synthetics
weren't perfect. Maybe "They" knew that, maybe they didn't, I don't know.
Nor do I know how long the contemporary-equivalent replacements will last.

Most extra-flexible plastics will suffer this fate. They are made
flexible by the inclusion of plasticisers - liquids that get between
the polymer chains and lubricate them so they slide over each other
rather than binding together. But over time they evaporate, leaving
the gaps behind, resulting in the plastic falling apart.

I think there are now plastics that are inherently flexible and should
have a much longer life.

d

---
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CHLO-E
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
But he wasn't (for obvious reasons) one of the
session players common on
BBC TV orchestras.

Really?

Phil Seaman's career began in the late forties.
He died in 1972. The BBC had studios in London,
Birmingham., Manchester, Cardiff, Glasgow etc.
I am intrigued that a sound recordist working in
television drama should be so familiar with the
identities of thousands of musicians involved in
music production in so many locations over
such a long period of time:-)

Unlike you, Iain, I speak from my personal experience. Of countless LE
shows made at the London TV premises of the BBC up until the mid '70s.

He might well have appeared on some of those - but wasn't one of the
regulars that turned up time and time again.

That you don't understand the variety of programmes staff work on in a
place like the BBC simply shows your ignorance of this sort of work. So no
surprise you look down on it from your ivory tower. ;-)

However, it was good to be asked by you how to cope with a simple thing
like a musician moving around on stage while playing. I was glad to help -
without the necessity of slagging off other branches of the same industry.

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

CHLO-E
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The one and only time I've cut clicks out of an LP was on one even the
various broadcast libraries couldn't find another of. It was for an ITV
schools' broadcast with no budget to have it specially recorded. Won an
international Emmy too - but not for the music. ;-)

I make digital transcriptions for various reasons.

1) To remove clicks from old LPs.

2) To avoid the need to have to play the same LP again, risking added wear
to my ancient Shure styli, etc.

3) Convenience of being able to play the results in rooms where I don't
have the record deck.


Cleaning the LP thoroughly in advance and
using a "wet transfer" greatly reduces the
number of clicks and ticks, and greatly reduces
the surface noise.

Iain

CHLO-E
 

On 13/01/2017 12:24, Iain Churches wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The one and only time I've cut clicks out of an LP was on one even the
various broadcast libraries couldn't find another of. It was for an ITV
schools' broadcast with no budget to have it specially recorded. Won an
international Emmy too - but not for the music. ;-)

I make digital transcriptions for various reasons.

1) To remove clicks from old LPs.

2) To avoid the need to have to play the same LP again, risking added wear
to my ancient Shure styli, etc.

3) Convenience of being able to play the results in rooms where I don't
have the record deck.


Cleaning the LP thoroughly in advance and
using a "wet transfer" greatly reduces the
number of clicks and ticks, and greatly reduces
the surface noise.


What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled water?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

CHLO-E
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 13/01/2017 12:24, Iain Churches wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The one and only time I've cut clicks out of an LP was on one even the
various broadcast libraries couldn't find another of. It was for an ITV
schools' broadcast with no budget to have it specially recorded. Won an
international Emmy too - but not for the music. ;-)

I make digital transcriptions for various reasons.

1) To remove clicks from old LPs.

2) To avoid the need to have to play the same LP again, risking added
wear
to my ancient Shure styli, etc.

3) Convenience of being able to play the results in rooms where I don't
have the record deck.


Cleaning the LP thoroughly in advance and
using a "wet transfer" greatly reduces the
number of clicks and ticks, and greatly reduces
the surface noise.


What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled water?


Lots of concoctions seem to be in use.
Distilled water is probably the safest and
works quite well.

A pal of mine, ex BBC Transcription Service,
had his own recipe. He referred to the
commercially available alternatives as
"audio solvents":-)


Iain






--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

CHLO-E
 

"Huge" wrote in message
...

FWIW, I use 90% distilled water (not de-ionised), 10% isopropyl alcohol
and a few drops of photographic wetting agent (2.5ml in a litre).

That's not far removed from my own recipe.
But being fonder of cooking than I am of photogaphy,
I replace the wetting agent with a tiny drop of
Fairy Liquid.

Although doesn't wet playing (which I have been doing for decades without
problems) cause steam to come out of some purists ears? (Win/win, then,
in my book.)

Yes, it does upset some people.
Others have told me that once you play an LP
with a prorietary wet transfer liquid, you can no
longer play it dry.

There seem to be variations on the way people
perform wet transfer also. I prefer a well-cleaned
disc. I then start the turntable and paint the first
track of the disc with a very soft paintbrush.
I then lower the arm to start the transcriptions
and paint ahead about 3cms.

Iain

CHLO-E
 

Jim Lesurf said:
Richard Robinson wrote:

I didn't get rid of all the vinyl, I kept the ones with sleevenotes
containing info I might possibly want but couldn't face typing up.
...
You should keep the LPs. In my view, owning them is in a sense a 'key' to
being able to play the digitised version in moral terms.

Ah. I missed that point, didn't think of it. It is a point.

And at some future point there is a risk you'll need the LP anyway.

The ones I passed on were the ones where I don't foresee that. I can't see
any reason except for the sleevenote info, and they were pretty mainstream
stuff, where the info's highly likely to be available courtesy of the 'net
if I ever need it (which I don't see as particularly likely). The ones I
kept were mostly the obscurities that never made it onto CD - little 70s/80s
Swedish traditional-music labels, and the like.

The final link in my personal chain was when the price of "enough" USB
storage dropped below £50. I have a copy of Everything in my pocket.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

CHLO-E
 

Huge said:
On 2017-01-13, Graeme Wall wrote:

What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled water?

FWIW, I use 90% distilled water (not de-ionised), 10% isopropyl alcohol
and a few drops of photographic wetting agent (2.5ml in a litre).

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local "chemist" a
few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.

Which may be a fair point, but not relevant here.

Although doesn't wet playing (which I have been doing for decades without
problems) cause steam to come out of some purists ears? (Win/win, then,
in my book.)

Sounds like a lot of friction.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

CHLO-E
 

On 13/01/2017 13:14, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-13, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 13/01/2017 12:24, Iain Churches wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The one and only time I've cut clicks out of an LP was on one even the
various broadcast libraries couldn't find another of. It was for an ITV
schools' broadcast with no budget to have it specially recorded. Won an
international Emmy too - but not for the music. ;-)

I make digital transcriptions for various reasons.

1) To remove clicks from old LPs.

2) To avoid the need to have to play the same LP again, risking added wear
to my ancient Shure styli, etc.

3) Convenience of being able to play the results in rooms where I don't
have the record deck.


Cleaning the LP thoroughly in advance and
using a "wet transfer" greatly reduces the
number of clicks and ticks, and greatly reduces
the surface noise.


What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled water?

FWIW, I use 90% distilled water (not de-ionised), 10% isopropyl alcohol
and a few drops of photographic wetting agent (2.5ml in a litre).

Thanks


Although doesn't wet playing (which I have been doing for decades without
problems) cause steam to come out of some purists ears? (Win/win, then,
in my book.)



IME anything to do with sound reproduction is going to cause steam to
come out of someones' ears :-)


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

CHLO-E
 

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-01-13, Iain Churches wrote:

I always thought Fairy Liquid had salt in it as a thickener, which
deposits onto the record surface, although looking at the material
safety sheet, I could well be wrong.

With the tiniest drop of Fairy to a litre of solution,
I wonder, if there is any salt, how much it can affect the result?

I have made wet-transcriptions that did not need any further
work on the DAW.

These days, many new, limited-edition pressings,
on 180gm vinyl are pristine.


Although doesn't wet playing (which I have been doing for decades
without
problems) cause steam to come out of some purists ears? (Win/win, then,
in my book.)

Yes, it does upset some people.
Others have told me that once you play an LP
with a prorietary wet transfer liquid, you can no
longer play it dry.

And they're right. The surface noise levels go up considerably, I assume
because gunge that was previously in the bottom of the groove has now
been distributed over the groove walls.

A peep through a microscope before and after might be
revealing.

I've never seen any evidence
of this, partly because it's hard to find any through the blizzard
of saliva-splattered ranting about how evil wet playing is.


:-)


Iain

CHLO-E
 

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 08:35:17 -0600, Richard Robinson
wrote:

Huge said:
On 2017-01-13, Graeme Wall wrote:

What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled water?

FWIW, I use 90% distilled water (not de-ionised), 10% isopropyl alcohol
and a few drops of photographic wetting agent (2.5ml in a litre).

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local "chemist" a
few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.

Which may be a fair point, but not relevant here.

Although doesn't wet playing (which I have been doing for decades without
problems) cause steam to come out of some purists ears? (Win/win, then,
in my book.)

Sounds like a lot of friction.

I think Radiospares have it.

d

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

CHLO-E
 

On 13/01/2017 13:29, Iain Churches wrote:

There seem to be variations on the way people
perform wet transfer also. I prefer a well-cleaned
disc. I then start the turntable and paint the first
track of the disc with a very soft paintbrush.
I then lower the arm to start the transcriptions
and paint ahead about 3cms.

Doesn't it make your thorn soggy?

As for wetting agent, I use a drop of Windolene because washing up liquid
leave the midrange rather smeary. :-)

--
Eiron.

CHLO-E
 

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Huge said:
On 2017-01-13, Graeme Wall wrote:

What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled
water?

FWIW, I use 90% distilled water (not de-ionised), 10% isopropyl alcohol
and a few drops of photographic wetting agent (2.5ml in a litre).

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local "chemist"
a
few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.

Which may be a fair point, but not relevant here.


I am not certain, but IIRC it is also known
as surgical spirit or rubbing alchohol.

Perhaps your chemist will know it under those names.
You can easily check the label to make sure it is the
same stuff.

Iain

CHLO-E
 

On 13/01/2017 14:35, Richard Robinson wrote:

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local "chemist" a
few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.

Isn't vodka pure enough? Or for the Americans, 95% grain alcohol?
You could test it by leaving some in a clean glass to evaporate and look
for the residue.

--
Eiron.

CHLO-E
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
On 13/01/2017 13:29, Iain Churches wrote:

There seem to be variations on the way people
perform wet transfer also. I prefer a well-cleaned
disc. I then start the turntable and paint the first
track of the disc with a very soft paintbrush.
I then lower the arm to start the transcriptions
and paint ahead about 3cms.

Doesn't it make your thorn soggy?

:-))) Wetter is better!

Iain

CHLO-E
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
On 13/01/2017 14:35, Richard Robinson wrote:

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local
"chemist" a
few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.

Isn't vodka pure enough? Or for the Americans, 95% grain alcohol?
You could test it by leaving some in a clean glass to evaporate and look
for the residue.

"Absolut"ely!

CHLO-E
 

On 13/01/2017 15:00, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-13, Eiron wrote:
On 13/01/2017 13:29, Iain Churches wrote:

There seem to be variations on the way people
perform wet transfer also. I prefer a well-cleaned
disc. I then start the turntable and paint the first
track of the disc with a very soft paintbrush.
I then lower the arm to start the transcriptions
and paint ahead about 3cms.

Doesn't it make your thorn soggy?

As for wetting agent, I use a drop of Windolene because washing up liquid
leave the midrange rather smeary.

:o)

I know you weren't serious, but didn't Windolene used to have jewellers
rouge in it (which is why it was pink). Probably not the best thing to
play records with ...

Of course, but as a bloke I know nothing about cleaning windows and
couldn't think of another brand which might be universally recognized.

Back in the seventies there was a silicone? spray recommended (by the
vendor)
for coating new LPs, presumably to prolong life and reject dirt.
I suspect that Rain-X would do the same thing now.
Maybe after a good wash, that would reduce surface noise.


--
Eiron.

CHLO-E
 

On 13/01/2017 14:49, Eiron wrote:
On 13/01/2017 14:35, Richard Robinson wrote:

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local
"chemist" a
few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.

Isn't vodka pure enough? Or for the Americans, 95% grain alcohol?
You could test it by leaving some in a clean glass to evaporate and look
for the residue.

Vodka isn't pure enough. I suppose it is distilled then diluted with
mineral water.
So IPA from eBay is the best option.

--
Eiron.

CHLO-E
 

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-01-13, Iain Churches wrote:

"Huge" wrote in message
...

[25 lines snipped]

And they're right. The surface noise levels go up considerably, I assume
because gunge that was previously in the bottom of the groove has now
been distributed over the groove walls.

A peep through a microscope before and after might be
revealing.

"First buy your microscope".

:o)

I have one from a Neumann disc cutting lathe

CHLO-E
 

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-01-13, Eiron wrote:
On 13/01/2017 13:29, Iain Churches wrote:

There seem to be variations on the way people
perform wet transfer also. I prefer a well-cleaned
disc. I then start the turntable and paint the first
track of the disc with a very soft paintbrush.
I then lower the arm to start the transcriptions
and paint ahead about 3cms.

Doesn't it make your thorn soggy?

As for wetting agent, I use a drop of Windolene because washing up liquid
leave the midrange rather smeary.

:o)

I know you weren't serious, but didn't Windolene used to have jewellers
rouge in it (which is why it was pink). Probably not the best thing to
play records with ...

Windolene accentuates the mf.
No pane without gain.

CHLO-E
 

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 16:49 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
news:uYudnYMuUuk4eOXFnZ2dnUU78aWdnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...
Huge said:
On 2017-01-13, Graeme Wall wrote:

What is recommended these days for the wet transfer, just distilled
water?

FWIW, I use 90% distilled water (not de-ionised), 10% isopropyl alcohol
and a few drops of photographic wetting agent (2.5ml in a litre).

Where can one find isopropanol, these days ? I went into a local "chemist"
a few months ago and asked, they looked at me like I was demented.
Which may be a fair point, but not relevant here.

I am not certain, but IIRC it is also known as surgical spirit or rubbing alchohol.

Err, no, it's certainly not that. And discs and styli (and tape heads
as well for that matter) do not take too well to the Oil of Wintergreen
present in surgical spirit either (horrendous long story from my youth).

Perhaps your chemist will know it under those names.
You can easily check the label to make sure it is the
same stuff.

Indeed. And as mentioned, wet playing once means wet playing for ever
more, plus separate headshells and styli, flagging such discs, & etc.

--
paul (C) © 2017 is mine

CHLO-E
 

In article ,
paul wrote:
Err, no, it's certainly not that. And discs and styli (and tape heads
as well for that matter) do not take too well to the Oil of Wintergreen
present in surgical spirit either (horrendous long story from my youth).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol

--
*I can see your point, but I still think you're full of ****.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.