In article ,
Jem Raid wrote:
Well, I suppose you could build the room round the horn...

Or tweak the horn, especially when you have made it yourself, which is
one of the fundamentals of DIY HiFi, the other is that you get "high
end" stuff for peanuts.

You and I obviously have a different definition of 'high end' when it
comes to sound quality.

Why not make a pair yourself it's not going to cost much and the results
might just be astounding!

Folded horn speakers are anything but new. And 'ye canna change the laws
of physics, captin'.

--
*Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jem Raid wrote:
I would love to be there when you hear them for the first time and see
the smile of appreciation and understanding spread across your face.

Must be great to know how something is going to sound before you've even
made them. Are you trying to sell the kits or something?
LoL there aren't any kits, most DIY speakers and amps are far superior to
the overengineered and overly priced rip offs that crowd the pages of the so
called 'hifi' magazines.

e.g.classic milestone DIY amps, the JLH Class A (1969) and what is now known
as the Gainclone (2001), both using ordinary components in a different and
innovative way, and then copied and sold to the punters for 100 times the
price of the components. In the case of the Gainclone the component price
using the very best availaible would be about £100 for a pair including the
(2) power supplies; the cost of buying a pair of Gaincard amps and a pair of
power supplies is about £7,000.

I merely respond to your comments :-)

J

I must get myself a little slogan

Hmmmm "The link between 'high end' hifi and the impoverished is a soldering
iron and a saw"

"Jem Raid" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jem Raid wrote:
I would love to be there when you hear them for the first time and see
the smile of appreciation and understanding spread across your face.

Must be great to know how something is going to sound before you've even
made them. Are you trying to sell the kits or something?
LoL there aren't any kits, most DIY speakers and amps are far superior to
the overengineered and overly priced rip offs that crowd the pages of the
so
called 'hifi' magazines.

e.g.classic milestone DIY amps, the JLH Class A (1969) and what is now
known
as the Gainclone (2001), both using ordinary components in a different and
innovative way, and then copied and sold to the punters for 100 times the
price of the components. In the case of the Gainclone the component price
using the very best availaible would be about £100 for a pair including
the
(2) power supplies; the cost of buying a pair of Gaincard amps and a pair
of
power supplies is about £7,000.

I forgot to say that the Gaincard uses cheap components and if you made one
using for instance carbon resistors as I did (and as is in the Gaincard)
then the cost comes down to about £70.

I merely respond to your comments :-)

J

I must get myself a little slogan

Hmmmm "The link between 'high end' hifi and the impoverished is a
soldering
iron and a saw"

In article ,
Jem Raid wrote:
Must be great to know how something is going to sound before you've
even made them. Are you trying to sell the kits or something?
LoL there aren't any kits, most DIY speakers and amps are far superior
to the overengineered and overly priced rip offs that crowd the pages of
the so called 'hifi' magazines.

*Most* diy amps and speakers? Wonder if you'll feel the same after you've
made yours - or will, to the point, others?

e.g.classic milestone DIY amps, the JLH Class A (1969) and what is now
known as the Gainclone (2001), both using ordinary components in a
different and innovative way, and then copied and sold to the punters
for 100 times the price of the components. In the case of the Gainclone
the component price using the very best availaible would be about £100
for a pair including the (2) power supplies; the cost of buying a pair
of Gaincard amps and a pair of power supplies is about £7,000.

I wouldn't dream of defending high priced fancy 'naimed' stuff. However,
at the decent budget end, NAD etc, you'll not even buy the components -
even in bulk - for what they cost.

As regards DIY speakers, few will have the equipment or skills to make
them *look* other than DIY, and poor diy at that.

I'm not knocking making sound equipment. But it's best to make the things
you can't buy at a reasonable price.

--
*It doesn't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jem Raid wrote:
Must be great to know how something is going to sound before you've
even made them. Are you trying to sell the kits or something?
LoL there aren't any kits, most DIY speakers and amps are far superior
to the overengineered and overly priced rip offs that crowd the pages of
the so called 'hifi' magazines.

*Most* diy amps and speakers? Wonder if you'll feel the same after you've
made yours - or will, to the point, others?

e.g.classic milestone DIY amps, the JLH Class A (1969) and what is now
known as the Gainclone (2001), both using ordinary components in a
different and innovative way, and then copied and sold to the punters
for 100 times the price of the components. In the case of the Gainclone
the component price using the very best availaible would be about £100
for a pair including the (2) power supplies; the cost of buying a pair
of Gaincard amps and a pair of power supplies is about £7,000.

I wouldn't dream of defending high priced fancy 'naimed' stuff. However,
at the decent budget end, NAD etc, you'll not even buy the components -
even in bulk - for what they cost.

As regards DIY speakers, few will have the equipment or skills to make
them *look* other than DIY, and poor diy at that.

I'm not knocking making sound equipment. But it's best to make the things
you can't buy at a reasonable price.

That's a bit defeatist Dave, you can get the wood sawn up on a wall mounted
cutting machine at lots of woodyards, all you need after that is a saw and a
rough file and maybe a plane for the final cuts and angles. (I'm talking of
the Buschhorn here) Advice on finishing them is available on the DIY forums,
usually from some expert only too keen to share their knowledge.

The vital difference between DIY and bought stuff, is that you KNOW that you
are being ripped off against using a design that someone has worked on for
years, has been modified by other interested people and presented to the
rest of us in a truly altruistic fashion.

J


*It doesn't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Jem Raid wrote:
As regards DIY speakers, few will have the equipment or skills to make
them *look* other than DIY, and poor diy at that.

I'm not knocking making sound equipment. But it's best to make the
things you can't buy at a reasonable price.

That's a bit defeatist Dave, you can get the wood sawn up on a wall
mounted cutting machine at lots of woodyards,

Woodyards don't cater for DIY in general - they'll only rough cut stuff. A
*shed* tends to have a 'wall mounted cutting machine', but calling them
woodyards is stretching things a bit far.

all you need after that is
a saw and a rough file and maybe a plane for the final cuts and angles.

You're a bit new to this DIY game then?

(I'm talking of the Buschhorn here) Advice on finishing them is
available on the DIY forums, usually from some expert only too keen to
share their knowledge.

Sharing knowledge and actually doing something aren't quite the same thing.
But perhaps you're happy with a lick of paint on your furniture - watch
'Changing Rooms' often?

The vital difference between DIY and bought stuff, is that you KNOW that
you are being ripped off against using a design that someone has worked
on for years, has been modified by other interested people and presented
to the rest of us in a truly altruistic fashion.

Why don't you ask to visit a speaker maker - somewhere like Spendor or
Harbeth, who make or source all their own parts and designs? The care they
take needs to be seen.

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Dave Plowman wrote:

Why don't you ask to visit a speaker maker - somewhere like Spendor or
Harbeth, who make or source all their own parts and designs? The care they
take needs to be seen.

Veneer covers a multitude of sins.
When was the last time you saw a speaker cabinet
with dovetailed joints? :-)

--
Roger.

In article ,
Old Fart at Play wrote:
Why don't you ask to visit a speaker maker - somewhere like Spendor or
Harbeth, who make or source all their own parts and designs? The care
they take needs to be seen.

Veneer covers a multitude of sins.

It does if correctly applied. But I don't somehow see Jem being able with
his saw and rough file.

When was the last time you saw a speaker cabinet
with dovetailed joints? :-)

Well, modern glue makes much traditional construction method unnecessary -
although less fun to do. And MDF isn't timber anyway.

--
*Born free...Taxed to death.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

All right, enough already.

I think "Jem" is getting a bit too much of a hard time here.
I think some of the things he says are worthy. And let's face
it, he's right about a few things. Like the fact that many
amplifiers are just old, old designs re-worked to look
pretty, and sold for a lot of dosh.

And yes, I'll hold my hand up: I really really want a valve
amplifier and I know that probably all the budget ones are
re-worked designs from the 50s and 60s. But now I've grown old
enough to admit to myself that as long as an amp sounds okay,
I'm happy to take one that glows prettily and doesn't make a
mess of my music, because the thrill of having a valve amp
contributed to my enjoyment of the experience. I would never
have admitted that when I was younger.

So people are still making money out of very old designs,
but as long as people are willing to buy them, why not?

As for solid-state amps, yes, the parts price is probably
way, way lower than the sale price for most of them.

Also, I suppose, when it comes to DIY construction, the final
"cost" to you partly depends on the rate at which you charge
your own "time". For those for whom it's free, well then it's
worth it.

Wood and me don't get along very well, so constructing speakers
myself is not an option. I know, because I've tried it a few times!

If I were forced to do it again, and had access to the necessary
equipment, I reckon I'd use =10mm thick aluminium plate for the
cabinets, and not wood.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

In article , Fleetie
wrote:
All right, enough already.

I think "Jem" is getting a bit too much of a hard time here. I think
some of the things he says are worthy. And let's face it, he's right
about a few things. Like the fact that many amplifiers are just old, old
designs re-worked to look pretty, and sold for a lot of dosh.

I suspect you could say something similar about some 'new' designs as
well... :-)

So people are still making money out of very old designs, but as long as
people are willing to buy them, why not?

Seems fair enough. However I do wonder if some of the ones that get made
are sold on the basis of implying they are somehow 'newer' or 'better' than
is actually justified. I also wonder how many of the expensive valve amps
on sale these days are uncoditionally stable, and have taken into account
all the good R&D that was done in the past. Despite many of the claims
about expensive 'audiophile' components I also wonder about the actual
performance of some units.

Have a feeling that some of them are just old designs that gained a name
at the time before their limitations were identified. Then built with shiny
looking components with expensive name tags.

Actually, I wish that Hi Fi News would reprint the old amplifier
construction and design series by people like Arthur Radford. I have the
impression that at least some modern designers would benefit from reading
his work, and that of a few other designers of some years ago...

As for solid-state amps, yes, the parts price is probably way, way lower
than the sale price for most of them.

Alas, people who make such things for a living tend to want to eat. So does
the bank manager who loaned the money, the test engineers, etc... And so do
the people in the retail shop. :-)

Home design and construction is something I'd certainly recommend to those
who are willing to put in the required time and effort. However I'd assume
there are some excellent commercial designs around. The snag is to
distinguish them from gold-plated bird's nests... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html