Bi-wiring
 

Sorry for being so dense but how does one do it ?
My monoblocks each have a single pair of speaker outlets, my speakers two
pairs of connecting posts with a bridging strap in place. Do I simply run
double leads from the amp to each separate speaker post and remove the
bridging strap ?
Thanks

Bi-wiring
 

I did it. Because the bridging bits of metal on my speakers weren't very
good, and occasionally you'd only get treble. Bloody swine craming that many
wires into the binding posts on my amp mind.

What a complicated solution to a very simple problem ;-)

Bi-wiring
 

Why do people bi-wire when is makes absolutely no difference to the sound??
I just cant understand it!?! What's the point?

Stew.


"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
I did it. Because the bridging bits of metal on my speakers weren't very
good, and occasionally you'd only get treble. Bloody swine craming that
many
wires into the binding posts on my amp mind.

What a complicated solution to a very simple problem ;-)

Bi-wiring
 

You got it in one
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:17:04 -0700, "Stephen Judge"
wrote:

Sorry for being so dense but how does one do it ?
My monoblocks each have a single pair of speaker outlets, my speakers two
pairs of connecting posts with a bridging strap in place. Do I simply run
double leads from the amp to each separate speaker post and remove the
bridging strap ?
Thanks

Bi-wiring
 

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:56:15 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart wrote:
Why do people bi-wire when is makes absolutely no difference to the
sound?? I just cant understand it!?! What's the point?

Perhaps because it provides for others an easy to find conceited position
with which to troll for an argument?

Or perhaps because it provides a means of balancing a system using
different cables for each frequency band or optimising cable choice.
Someone may like the Bass from a cable but thinks the top too brash so
with Bi-wire they use something else for the top.

Since all cables sound the same, that dog don't hunt...........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
No, I've not done a double blind test, I don't need to.

Surely if the difference was so obvious, you'd have no trouble telling in
a proper test?

--
*Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

Bob Latham in uk.rec.audio:

there are only 3 possibilities I can think of..

1) You've not actually listened to any. Opinion based on theory only.
2) There is something substantial wrong with your source or kit.
3) Your hearing is impaired.

How about:

4) I am mistaken

Is that not at least a possibility?

--
Jim H

Bi-wiring
 

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:00:51 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:56:15 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart wrote:
Why do people bi-wire when is makes absolutely no difference to the
sound?? I just cant understand it!?! What's the point?

Perhaps because it provides for others an easy to find conceited position
with which to troll for an argument?

Or perhaps because it provides a means of balancing a system using
different cables for each frequency band or optimising cable choice.
Someone may like the Bass from a cable but thinks the top too brash so
with Bi-wire they use something else for the top.

Since all cables sound the same, that dog don't hunt...........

Well that is rubbish isn't it? To take it to a silly extreme a cotton thin
bell wire of 2ohms/metre would sound the same as QED 79 strand would it?

That's why there is also a pre-condition that levels are matched to
+/- 0.1dB, IOW silly differences in resistance are taken out of the
equation. BTW, two feet of that bell wire *will* sound the same as 20
feet or so of QED 79-strand, for that very reason.

If you think speaker cables at £10-£15 /metre sound the same then there
are only 3 possibilities I can think of..

Actually, I think that QED 79-strand sounds the same as Nordost
Valhalla and all the other silly cables (Kimber, Siltech etc) at
anything up to £5,000 per metre.

1) You've not actually listened to any. Opinion based on theory only.

Wrong.

2) There is something substantial wrong with your source or kit.

Wrong.

3) Your hearing is impaired.

Come round and see if *you* can hear a difference, when you don't
*know* which cable is connected. Or, I can come to your place if
that's more relaxed for you. As has frequently been noted, if you can
actually tell the difgfgerence, I'll give you £1,000.

How about:

4) I have actually compared many cables under controlled conditions,
while you have not, and have an overactive imagination........

Before you offer me the 1k challenge I'm not bothered if you wish to
remain in your "I know it all technically and it can't happen" world or
not.

Oh right, you mean you're not actually interested in reality. Please
note that the 'challenge' has absolutely *nothing* to do with me
'knowing it all technically', it has solely to do with *your* ability
to *hear* a difference.

I recently got a new power amp (Arcam P7) and as I left the shop the guy
threw a bag of cables at me. I ask you to believe (cos I'm not a liar) my
Mrs and I knew nothing of these cables. We tried using all sorts of
combinations of leads with the speakers Bi-amp'd. The two of us after an
hour had a clear preference for what we liked on the bass and something
different for the HF. We found this choice easy to make. I am very sure I
can tell the difference *easily* on my system.

I'm sure that's all true. I'm also sure that it has absolutely
*nothing* to do with the physical world.

No, I've not done a double
blind test, I don't need to.

Be happy in your ignorance...........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:23:53 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:01:11 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:56:15 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Stewart wrote:
Why do people bi-wire when is makes absolutely no difference to the
sound?? I just cant understand it!?! What's the point?

Perhaps because it provides for others an easy to find conceited position
with which to troll for an argument?

Or perhaps because it provides a means of balancing a system using
different cables for each frequency band or optimising cable choice.
Someone may like the Bass from a cable but thinks the top too brash so
with Bi-wire they use something else for the top.

Since all cables sound the same, that dog don't hunt...........

"All"?

All that measure to +/- 0.1 dB at the speaker terminals, yes. 50p a
metre or £2,000 a metre, doesn't matter.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
YMMV. Passive biamping has merits,

Any that are provable, rather than the usual 'even my wife can tell the
difference' ?

active biamping has more of them.

Indeed. Or rather it can well have benefits if properly done.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
Any that are provable, rather than the usual 'even my wife can tell the
difference' ?

If the wife prefers the sound then isn't that a merit?

Depends on the wife. Perhaps she would have more confidence in her
judgement and be willing to have it scientifically tested, unlike most
here?

--
*Eat well, stay fit, die anyway

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:36:39 +0100, The EggKing used
to say...

Only worth while in a dual amp setup.

Perhaps you missed his description of dual monoblocks?

For gods sake, can you just take part in any group without you're cock sure
****** attitude??

TOSSER.

Bi-wiring
 

"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:22:02 +0100, Dave Plowman used
to say...

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
YMMV. Passive biamping has merits,

Any that are provable, rather than the usual 'even my wife can tell the
difference' ?

If the wife prefers the sound then isn't that a merit?

You aint got a wife.

Bi-wiring
 

Once again you miss the point (no doubt to you being totally wrapped in
the technical aspects). Most people have audio equaipment to enjoy
music, if something they added increases that enjoyment then, regardless
of the technical viewpoint, surely that something has merit? After all
it has increased their perceived enjoyment.

OK. Snake Oil for ever! :-)

Bi-wiring
 

Not dense!..........indeed, simply run tandem cables from the amp to the
loudspeaker (being mindful of polarity). Also correct, remove the jumper
straps. A personal tip...I as a rule always dip the cable ends(pins, lugs,
spades, nannas, whatever) in a bit of rubbing alcohol just prior to
tightening. I find this not only helps clean the connections of any oxide,
but helps prevent it as well!

Regards from the USA

Bi-wiring
 

"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message


Once again you miss the point (no doubt to you being totally wrapped
in the technical aspects). Most people have audio equaipment to enjoy
music, if something they added increases that enjoyment then,
regardless of the technical viewpoint, surely that something has
merit? After all it has increased their perceived enjoyment.

Hey, I've got an idea. Let's convince as many people as we can that getting
naked and coating themselves with olive oil will increase their enjoyment of
their audio system.

LOL!

Bi-wiring
 

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:35:06 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:56:55 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:59:58 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message


Once again you miss the point (no doubt to you being totally wrapped
in the technical aspects). Most people have audio equaipment to enjoy
music, if something they added increases that enjoyment then,
regardless of the technical viewpoint, surely that something has
merit? After all it has increased their perceived enjoyment.

Hey, I've got an idea. Let's convince as many people as we can that getting
naked and coating themselves with olive oil will increase their enjoyment of
their audio system.

It does, especially in mixed company. What, you didn't know this?

So that's why the teutonic 'tard is the way he is!

I'm with Pinky, it would certainly increase my enjoyment, AFAIAC it
definately has merit, though I'm not so sure extra virgin would be the
way to go on this occasion.

Any party can benefit from an extra virgin..............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:59:58 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Hey, I've got an idea. Let's convince as many people as we can that getting
naked and coating themselves with olive oil will increase their enjoyment of
their audio system.


It does, especially in mixed company. What, you didn't know this?



I don't suppose you play Twister by any chance?

Roger.

Bi-wiring
 

0 means nothing, ie it doesn't exist
1 means something, ie it does exist.

It appears that you are the one who does not understand what you
wrote, which was a mathematical expression, not a philosophical one.

In the context of this argument I understood what Kurt wrote and I also
would agree.

So the difference between something existing and not existing is far
greater than increasing the number of existing things.

I don't agree.


Hmm you'd be happy all alone on the whole wide world?
If you had something when previously you had nowt would this not be better
than having many?

Example1:

You have to walk 10 miles to work.. no other means available.. therefore 10
miles back.

Oneday you awake and a Audi TT is sitting in your drive with a full tank of
fuel :-)

WOW you jump in and enjoy your journey to work AND back.

Example2:

You drive to work everyday in your Audi TT... nothing much thought of it as
it sits in your drive every morning.

Oneday you awake and the front of the house is littered with Audi TT's,
however overwhelmed you may feel at having so many cars you can still only
drive 1 at a time.

So therefore is not better to have 1 than many if you had nowt before?

Steve

Bi-wiring
 

In message , Kurt Hamster
writes
On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:24:40 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:10:45 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:04:24 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:27:24 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

Don't forget that the difference between 0 and 1 is greater than the
difference between 1 and 1,000,000.

Wrong again.

Is it?

Yes.

You're wrong then. Simple as that.

No, Stewart's quite right. 'Difference' is a precise mathematical
statement. The difference between 0 and 1 is 1.

Now if you had said 'ratio', that would have been a very different
thing.
--
Chris Morriss

Bi-wiring
 

"Stephen Judge" wrote in message
...
Sorry for being so dense but how does one do it ?
My monoblocks each have a single pair of speaker outlets, my speakers two
pairs of connecting posts with a bridging strap in place. Do I simply run
double leads from the amp to each separate speaker post and remove the
bridging strap ?
Thanks


Article on bi-wired amps
http://www.sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
Hope this helps.
Regards



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 30-Jul-2003

Bi-wiring
 

Article on bi-wired amps
http://www.sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
Hope this helps.

Not much :-)
That's about bi-amping, an established technique.

They're talking about bi-wiring, which is snake-oil.

Bi-wiring
 

"Chris Morriss" wrote in message
...
In message , Kurt Hamster
Don't forget that the difference between 0 and 1 is greater than the
difference between 1 and 1,000,000.

Wrong again.

Is it?

Yes.

You're wrong then. Simple as that.

No, Stewart's quite right. 'Difference' is a precise mathematical
statement. The difference between 0 and 1 is 1.

Now if you had said 'ratio', that would have been a very different
thing.
--
Chris Morriss

Ah, but things are different from numbers, at least to most people. What's
the difference between having no cd players and one? In terms of love,
expectation, cost, room space and so on. Between none and two? One and two?
Perhaps if I phrased it in terms of Audis. No, that wouldn't work.
Rob

Bi-wiring
 

.... or even a Polo.

Yes but thought Pinky might just put more thought into it this way.
He might disagree with a polo lol.

WOW you jump in and enjoy your journey to work AND back.


Vrooooooooooooooom


Yea who's got the keys?


Steve

Bi-wiring
 

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:21:51 +0100, "RJH"
wrote:


"Chris Morriss" wrote in message
...
In message , Kurt Hamster
Don't forget that the difference between 0 and 1 is greater than the
difference between 1 and 1,000,000.

Wrong again.

Is it?

Yes.

You're wrong then. Simple as that.

No, Stewart's quite right. 'Difference' is a precise mathematical
statement. The difference between 0 and 1 is 1.

Now if you had said 'ratio', that would have been a very different
thing.
--
Chris Morriss

Ah, but things are different from numbers, at least to most people.

Quite so, but Kurt didn't say 'the difference between one thing and
nothing', did he? He used numbers.

What's
the difference between having no cd players and one? In terms of love,
expectation, cost, room space and so on. Between none and two? One and two?
Perhaps if I phrased it in terms of Audis. No, that wouldn't work.

Actually, we do have two Audis, and they both work. :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

I had some spare cable anyway so tried bi-wiring with two single channel
monoblocks. If it made a difference I'm still struggling to hear it !

Perhaps I'll try again if I move to bi-amping.

Bi-amping will almost certainly make an audible difference. Whether
it's an improvement.....

Always remember: Expensive + Different = Better :-)

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Stephen Judge wrote:
I had some spare cable anyway so tried bi-wiring with two single channel
monoblocks. If it made a difference I'm still struggling to hear it !

I'm not surprised. ;-)

Perhaps I'll try again if I move to bi-amping.

That's a more expensive experiment. If you mean just two amps effectively
in parallel, again there will be no benefit unless you need (and the
speakers can handle) the extra power.

Proper bi-amping involves a crossover before the power amps and not using
the one in the speaker. But this requires proper design to give an
improvement unless the speakers have poorly designed crossovers - unlikely
in decent makes.

--
*A day without sunshine is like... night.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Proper bi-amping involves a crossover before the power amps and not
using the one in the speaker. But this requires proper design to give
an improvement unless the speakers have poorly designed crossovers -
unlikely in decent makes.

Widely successfully employed with subwoofers, though.

Indeed. The benefits are even more so with low frequencies due to the
greater power required. A well designed passive crossover at say 50 hz
made to handle 150 watts would be pretty costly.

--
*Gaffer tape - The Force, light and dark sides - holds the universe together*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

I always thought active was the way to go if you could afford it.
Does not going active reap benefits of the following:

1. less strain on the amps due to frequency bandwidth
2. Increased speaker efficiency therefore more dynamic range
3. Improved amplifier control of speakers through damping factor.

And a few more likely that dont come to mind.

Maybe. But might not sound any better than a nice amplifier driving a
nice 2-way speaker with a well-designed crossover.

Complicated systems introduce a lot more ways to go wrong!

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Stevie Boy wrote:
I always thought active was the way to go if you could afford it.
Does not going active reap benefits of the following:

1. less strain on the amps due to frequency bandwidth

A good amp shouldn't be worried by what it's driving.

2. Increased speaker efficiency therefore more dynamic range

The limiting factor will still be toasting the speaker voice coils if you
have sufficient power.

3. Improved amplifier control of speakers through damping factor.

Could be, although most crossovers will effectively couple the bass driver
direct to the amp at the frequencies where damping factor matters.

And a few more likely that dont come to mind.

Well, you could use say a class A amp for the mid frequencies where
distortion is most noticeable. And also the HF - keeping a more efficient
and cheaper A-B amp for the bass.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:33:06 +0100, Ronnie McKinley
wrote:

In uk.rec.audio (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

As it happens, my
wife has a TT and she would like another one (a roadster) for the
weekend.


A TT for weekdays and a TT for the weekend? .... I think the Pinkerton
family lack some imagination in car choice.

Don't deal me in on this - I want a Tuscan!

Don't forget the bumper
sticker for the TT .... "errrr my other car is also a TT as well"

I liked the one I saw on a Porsche 996 Turbo - "my other car is a
clapped-out Fiesta".


--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:48:21 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:06:32 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

Ah, but things are different from numbers, at least to most people.

Quite so, but Kurt didn't say 'the difference between one thing and
nothing', did he? He used numbers.

Doesn't matter whether it's a '1' and a '0' or a 'TT' and 'no TT'.

It's sad that someone like yourself is so bound by the 'rules' that they
can't see beyond them.

Sure I can - beyond the rules, things don't work properly............

You are like a car on a scalextric track, only able to follow where the
contact groove (the 'rules') takes you.

That's right.

So far nothing you've said or done demonstrates your plea that you are
imaginitive. In fact the contrary is true.

An imaginative engineer still has to keep within the rules, or the
thing what he's engineeered won't work..................

Much like a lot of so-called 'high end' audio gear!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

Bi-amping will almost certainly make an audible difference.

Why would it?

For a start, it's most unlikely you'd be sending exactly the same
level into each side. That would make a gross audible difference.

Though, as I said, not necessarily an improvement.

Bi-wiring
 

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:47:27 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 09:46:56 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:48:21 +0100, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:06:32 GMT, Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

Ah, but things are different from numbers, at least to most people.

Quite so, but Kurt didn't say 'the difference between one thing and
nothing', did he? He used numbers.

Doesn't matter whether it's a '1' and a '0' or a 'TT' and 'no TT'.

It's sad that someone like yourself is so bound by the 'rules' that they
can't see beyond them.

Sure I can - beyond the rules, things don't work properly............

How would one know if the rules were followed all the time?

They're not - that's how you determine which rules work, and which can
be pushed. Basically, that's how the rules get established in
practice. Of course, a lot of bridges fell down and cars crashed along
the way.....................

You are like a car on a scalextric track, only able to follow where the
contact groove (the 'rules') takes you.

That's right.

Hence your lack of imagination.

I can imagine plenty, without breaking any basic rules.

So far nothing you've said or done demonstrates your plea that you are
imaginitive. In fact the contrary is true.

An imaginative engineer still has to keep within the rules, or the
thing what he's engineeered won't work..................

No, anyone with imagination pushes, challenges and breaks the rules.

Sure, but only once he's discovered which rules matter, and which can
be broken, or bent a bit. Engineering is *always* a compromise among
conflicting parameters, and the rules help you to reach the best
compromise.

Simply breaking established rules does no more than waste time,
although you could argue that it builds experience, so as time goes
on, you do fewer dumb things. That's the theory, anyway............

Much like a lot of so-called 'high end' audio gear!

Your admitted herd-like following of the 'rules' is what denies you
membership of the imagination club.

Your failure to understand why the rules are there, debars you from
entry into any engineering post.

At least the above gear is
imaginitive to have tried.

Bull****. It was often cobbled together by some half-educated clown
who didn't have the least clue what he was doing. Peter Qvortrup and
Yves Bernard Andre are two examples.

Being imaginative isn't all about getting it
right. It's also all about looking at things from a different angle, you
consistently demonstrate that you are unable to do that.

You consistently demonstrate that you have no knowledge whatever of
effective engineering design principles.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Bi-wiring
 

"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message


No, anyone with imagination pushes, challenges and breaks the rules.

When exercising imagination, it is important to know which rules to
challenge and try to break. Nobody has enough time to attack them all.

Bi-wiring
 

Arny Krueger in uk.rec.audio:

"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message


No, anyone with imagination pushes, challenges and breaks the rules.

When exercising imagination, it is important to know which rules to
challenge and try to break. Nobody has enough time to attack them all.

One of 'the rules' is to occasionally break/push/ignore/question the other
rules.

--
Jim H

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
You consistently demonstrate that you have no knowledge whatever of
effective engineering design principles.

Mr Dim strikes again :(

How many times have I said I have no engineering
qualifications/qualities/interest?

The more you argue this point the more you demonstrate just how
unimaginitive you are. I'd suggest you quit whilst the hole you are in
is still shallow enough to climb out of.

Then why don't you confine yourself to commenting on things you do know
about?

--
*Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
How many times have I said I have no engineering
qualifications/qualities/interest?

The more you argue this point the more you demonstrate just how
unimaginitive you are. I'd suggest you quit whilst the hole you are in
is still shallow enough to climb out of.

Then why don't you confine yourself to commenting on things you do know
about?

I am.

No - you only think you do.

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Bi-wiring
 

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
Then why don't you confine yourself to commenting on things you do
know about?

I am.

No - you only think you do.

I spend most days dealing with people who _think_ they are imaginitive.

But of course they are wrong and you are right.

I know what I'm talking about.

That will be a first, then.

As per normal you totally forget what was being discussed in this
sub-thread.

Really? Your crystal ball is working overtime as usual.

I know my limitations,

Like understanding anything even vaguely technical? Must be sad to have
such a closed mind that you don't try and expand it.

I just wish you knew yours.

I'm still searching.

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn