On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:34:58 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
The EggKing wrote:
It has been said that I could walk into Maplins and get hold of some
speaker cable for a couple of quid a metre. It's getting to me now and
my dad needs his cable back soon! So anyway I don't want two runs to
each speaker so Biwire cable it must be.

Maplin have got heavy duty speaker cable on special offer at the moment,
according to a flier I saw. Just use that and forget bi-wiring - it
offers
no advantage whatsoever. If you're convinced it does, then I'd guess
you'd appreciate the 'sound'
of expensive cable too.


I bought some of this recently, on special its 49p/m. So a potentialy an
extra £94 to spend on music!

I'm happy with it, or at least as happy as I can be with speaker wire. I
must admit I've not compared it directly with real 'high-end' cable, but
compared [1] to some chunky puple QED stuff I had (IIRC £2.50/m) there was
*no* difference.

My understanding is that the signal passes through a much greater length of
non-branded cable at the crossovers than on the run from the amp. I'm sure
the wiring inside the amp and the speakers isn't brand name stuff either.

[1] how I compare speaker wi
Get someone else to wire the same speakers to A/B outpus of your amp,
without telling you which is which. Switch between the two while listening.

--
Jim H

[1] how I compare speaker wi
Get someone else to wire the same speakers to A/B outpus of your amp,
without telling you which is which. Switch between the two while
listening.

--
Jim H

I personally Jim think this is wrong or at the very least flawed as it
provides nothing but confusement.
The mere idea of letting someone else fiddle with your Hi-fi knowingly
without knowing what they have done is enough to make the brain go bonkers!
Rather than attempting to listen to the music, your attempting to think
about cable changes and mentally trying to figure out which cable is in use.
It's rather like messing around with your computer rather than using it for
it's intended purpose.
Your worrying if it's running properly and optimally rather than just
getting down and doing whatever you need/wanting to be doing and therefore
get distracted and ultimately not putting your all in.

I prefer to install a cable for days on end if not weeks by which time you
should be thoroughly aware of how your system sounds and more importantly
what your hearing on those tracks you are playing. Then change the cables
and listen to the same tracks/music for a similiar period. this way you
should be accustomed to any differences in the system.
I would perform this type of test during daytime and evening time to allow
differences in temperature and Mains interference levels (plus ambient
noise).
I would also try to conform to uniform weather patterns. Meaning steer clear
of hot humid days or cold chilly nights which could easily affect the
equipment sound unless your lucky enough to own a air-conditioned room.

If after all this you still have doubts. It will be due to 2 things. Either
the equipment you are auditioning is not sufficiently different to warrent
worrying about or what you have listened to has not sufficiently logged in
your brain and the test will require repeating until your satisfied.

I think A/B comparisons in the manner you speak of or any equipment
comparison that requires short term switch over is doomed. I used to go to a
dealer that insisted on this type of dem. In the end I could not offer my
hard earned cash to them as I felt their method was flawed as I struggled to
define differences clearly enough to make a real conscious decison.

Steve

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:40:12 +0100, Stevie Boy wrote:


[1] how I compare speaker wi
Get someone else to wire the same speakers to A/B outpus of your amp,
without telling you which is which. Switch between the two while
listening.

--
Jim H

I personally Jim think this is wrong or at the very least flawed as it
provides nothing but confusement.
The mere idea of letting someone else fiddle with your Hi-fi knowingly
without knowing what they have done is enough to make the brain go
bonkers!
Rather than attempting to listen to the music, your attempting to think
about cable changes and mentally trying to figure out which cable is in
use.
It's rather like messing around with your computer rather than using it
for
it's intended purpose.
Your worrying if it's running properly and optimally rather than just
getting down and doing whatever you need/wanting to be doing and
therefore
get distracted and ultimately not putting your all in.

I prefer to install a cable for days on end if not weeks by which time
you
should be thoroughly aware of how your system sounds and more importantly
what your hearing on those tracks you are playing. Then change the cables
and listen to the same tracks/music for a similiar period. this way you
should be accustomed to any differences in the system.
I would perform this type of test during daytime and evening time to
allow
differences in temperature and Mains interference levels (plus ambient
noise).
I would also try to conform to uniform weather patterns. Meaning steer
clear
of hot humid days or cold chilly nights which could easily affect the
equipment sound unless your lucky enough to own a air-conditioned room.

If after all this you still have doubts. It will be due to 2 things.
Either
the equipment you are auditioning is not sufficiently different to
warrent
worrying about or what you have listened to has not sufficiently logged
in
your brain and the test will require repeating until your satisfied.

I think A/B comparisons in the manner you speak of or any equipment
comparison that requires short term switch over is doomed. I used to go
to a
dealer that insisted on this type of dem. In the end I could not offer my
hard earned cash to them as I felt their method was flawed as I struggled
to
define differences clearly enough to make a real conscious decison.

Steve




Ok, but how about an A/B test over a few weeks or even months. The point is
that knowing which cable is used could change the results, with a £150
piece of wire you may subconsciously convince yourself of new details in
order to justify the purchase.

This is why a double blind test is the standard measure for scientific
proof. If one cable is noticeably better than the other you should
ultimately be able to say which is which. In this case you are both subject
and result taker, so it is reasonable to call the test double blind if only
you are unaware which is A/B.

An interesting one would be to wire twice, but with identical wire, and
tell the cable lover channel A cost 50p/m and B is some solid silver affair
at £10/m. Then leave him to listen for a few days and see which he
preferred. I'd bet more than 80% say A. Of course, you'd have to cover up
the amplifier terminals and check for peeking!


--
Jim H

"
Ok, but how about an A/B test over a few weeks or even months. The point
is
that knowing which cable is used could change the results, with a £150
piece of wire you may subconsciously convince yourself of new details in
order to justify the purchase.


I agree for those that look at bucks = better will convince themselves.
However we all know this is not always true. One has to be open minded about
what one hears and the cables tested on a good range of recordings that will
give a full picture of the wire on test in the said system.

Howver a cable can only perform IMO to their best in the correct system so a
expensive cable could easily be outstriped by one thats very cheap but this
does not make the cheap one ideal.

I have often heard cables at cheaper prices sounding better than the more
expensive breathren and also with great justification heard more expensive
cables sounding better compared with their cheaper counterparts on
particular recordings through the same system.

This is why a double blind test is the standard measure for scientific
proof.

Well there is a Hi-Fi mag that uses this standard (or used to) and the panel
that sat in on these tests could not agree on what they heard from each
product.
So scientific or not it's a mockery.
Even Uri geller cant reproduce his wonders under labs test (if he has any of
course)

If one cable is noticeably better than the other you should
ultimately be able to say which is which.

I again agree but I do believe it's important to know the pieces of music
you listen to well and choose those pieces of music carefully so you
experience as much freq range to your ears as possible.

I sat in on a blind test having to jot down digital audio sources. We were
given 2 tracks for each source and then from what we heard make a decision
on which source was being played at that time. Since the music varied from
source to source and one was not very familiar with the chossen music it was
not easy. Needles to say I did not do very well. However from such test I do
feel that it would be wrong to make final judgements on how good/bad the
products were. Time speaks volumes.



An interesting one would be to wire twice, but with identical wire, and
tell the cable lover channel A cost 50p/m and B is some solid silver
affair
at £10/m. Then leave him to listen for a few days and see which he
preferred.

Hmm trust you asking for. For me that would be a difficult one to answer.
However if B for instance did sound better to some it would have to be
quantified how it sounded better over A. If they could not do this then they
would have to say B is no better than A.

I'd bet more than 80% say A.

Of course theres always a percentage of plebs. But I reckon it would be more
the uninitiated new to Hi-Fi who make the mistake.
However without a genuine test its hearsay.

Of course, you'd have to cover up
the amplifier terminals and check for peeking!



Blast!! :-)

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:26:44 +0100, Stevie Boy wrote:

Ok, but how about an A/B test over a few weeks or even months. The point
is
that knowing which cable is used could change the results, with a £150
piece of wire you may subconsciously convince yourself of new details in
order to justify the purchase.

I agree for those that look at bucks = better will convince themselves.
However we all know this is not always true. One has to be open minded
about
what one hears and the cables tested on a good range of recordings that
will
give a full picture of the wire on test in the said system.

Howver a cable can only perform IMO to their best in the correct system
so a
expensive cable could easily be outstriped by one thats very cheap but
this
does not make the cheap one ideal.

The next time you compare two cables anyway, why not try not knowing which
is which? 'Cable A' is just as meaningful a description as the fancy name
it sells under. Maybe you don't think you'll be influenced by the knowledge
of which is 'A'. In which case, great, you don't loose - double blindnes
can only make the results more accurate, not less.

When you show your friends your cables it isn't double blind either,
because you know which is the 'better' wire. This may seem a subtle
difference, but studies have shown placebo effect to be much stronger when
doctors don't know they're prescribing placebo. The pepsi challenge wasn't
double blind and everyone chose pepsi, if coke had of done it everyone
would have chosen coke, if it was double blind it /may/ have been fair.

This is why a double blind test is the standard measure for scientific
proof.

Well there is a Hi-Fi mag that uses this standard (or used to) and the
panel
that sat in on these tests could not agree on what they heard from each
product.
So scientific or not it's a mockery.

Any psychological experiment will have a level at which the results become
statistically significent. If the reviewers can't agree after a long time
listening that level hasn't been reached and the cables should be said to
be not significently different. I don't think its a mockery if no certain
result is reached.

Are you saying that if the reviewers had known which is which they would
have agreed? I don't see how knowing the name of the cable changes what you
hear.


Even Uri geller cant reproduce his wonders under labs test (if he has any
of
course)

So are there audio differences that disapear under scientific tests, but
would be there otherwise?

Likewise, if Uri can't do his magic under controlled conditions I doubt he
can do it at all (last I heard he shocked the scientists?)

If one cable is noticeably better than the other you should
ultimately be able to say which is which.

I again agree but I do believe it's important to know the pieces of music
you listen to well and choose those pieces of music carefully so you
experience as much freq range to your ears as possible.

Sure. For everything I've said so far I'm assuming that you know the music
very well, and that the same music is used.

I sat in on a blind test having to jot down digital audio sources. We
were
given 2 tracks for each source and then from what we heard make a
decision
on which source was being played at that time. Since the music varied
from
source to source and one was not very familiar with the chossen music it
was
not easy. Needles to say I did not do very well. However from such test I
do
feel that it would be wrong to make final judgements on how good/bad the
products were. Time speaks volumes.

I kinda agree. But If a piece of HiFi will improve my equipment only to a
level that I won't even realise it HAS improved for another few weeks, I'm
not interested in such a small improvement!

An interesting one would be to wire twice, but with identical wire, and
tell the cable lover channel A cost 50p/m and B is some solid silver
affair
at £10/m. Then leave him to listen for a few days and see which he
preferred.

Hmm trust you asking for. For me that would be a difficult one to answer.
However if B for instance did sound better to some it would have to be
quantified how it sounded better over A. If they could not do this then
they
would have to say B is no better than A.

I'd bet more than 80% say A.

Of course theres always a percentage of plebs. But I reckon it would be
more
the uninitiated new to Hi-Fi who make the mistake.
However without a genuine test its hearsay.

Yep. There'd also be a lot of people determined that there is no
difference, who would say without listening and non-conformists who say the
cheap stuff just to be 'individual'. The most satisfying one would be to
put the magic cable marketing through a double blind test, particuarly the
ones who say things like "When I got them home and put them in my system
they totally blew me away" (actual quote from transparent cable site)

Of course, you'd have to cover up
the amplifier terminals and check for peeking!

Blast!! :-)

If you're brave enough to venture through the jungle round the back of my
amp, its you'll unlikely return anyway.

--
Jim H

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:26:44 +0100, "Stevie Boy"
wrote:

Ok, but how about an A/B test over a few weeks or even months. The point
is
that knowing which cable is used could change the results, with a £150
piece of wire you may subconsciously convince yourself of new details in
order to justify the purchase.

I agree for those that look at bucks = better will convince themselves.
However we all know this is not always true. One has to be open minded about
what one hears and the cables tested on a good range of recordings that will
give a full picture of the wire on test in the said system.

The trick to being open-minded is to avoid your brain falling out....

Howver a cable can only perform IMO to their best in the correct system so a
expensive cable could easily be outstriped by one thats very cheap but this
does not make the cheap one ideal.

Nope, they all sound the same when you don't *know* which one is
connected. Anyone who can prove otherwise in a blind test, can collect
£1,000 from me personally. That should buy some decent cable!

This is why a double blind test is the standard measure for scientific
proof.

Well there is a Hi-Fi mag that uses this standard (or used to) and the panel
that sat in on these tests could not agree on what they heard from each
product.
So scientific or not it's a mockery.

No, it's just an indication that the products actually sounded the
same.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Well there is a Hi-Fi mag that uses this standard (or used to) and the
panel
that sat in on these tests could not agree on what they heard from each
product.
So scientific or not it's a mockery.

Am I reading this right?

You KNOW there MUST be a difference?
So tests that reveal no difference are a mockery?

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:52:39 +0000 (UTC), Jim H
wrote:

Anyone who can prove otherwise in a blind test, can collect
£1,000 from me personally. That should buy some decent cable!

I wonder what odds Stevie Boy would give?

I'd be more than happy to give him good odds, if he'd like to lay down
some money, and put his ears where his gob is! :-)

However, the above offer is actually a prize rather than a bet.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article ,
Stevie Boy wrote:
Even Uri geller cant reproduce his wonders under labs test (if he has
any of course)

He's a showman. Magician or conjurer. Nothing else.

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...

Well there is a Hi-Fi mag that uses this standard (or used to) and the
panel
that sat in on these tests could not agree on what they heard from each
product.
So scientific or not it's a mockery.

Am I reading this right?

You KNOW there MUST be a difference?

Given the amount of gear that under went review and the different
conclusions reached by many members of the review then yes.
If you think everything sounds the same then you might as well go out and
buy a crystal set.

So tests that reveal no difference are a mockery?

I did not say that. Entirely depends whats under test.
There are many similiar sounding products on the market weather speaker
cables, interconnects or CD players or whatever (which could include
anything you have in mind).

Steve