Speaker Cable

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:38:39 +0100, "The EggKing"
wrote:

It has been said that I could walk into Maplins and get hold of some speaker
cable for a couple of quid a metre. It's getting to me now and my dad needs
his cable back soon! So anyway I don't want two runs to each speaker so
Biwire cable it must be.

Any advice or recommendations welcome and appreciated

Go to Maplin and buy the thickest cable you feel comfortable with. The
electrons [1] don't care what price you paid for it and whether or not
it is a 'good' brand. ;-)


[1] Sorry, Jim, I should say the electromagnetic field does not
care.... :^)


--
Chris Isbell
Southampton
UK

"Stevie Boy" wrote in message


Well you have to consider before you make your mind up that this
group is somewhat anti-specialist speaker cable all in firm belief
(particular Mr. Pinkerton) that its a waste of money and bell wire is
sufficient.

Well Stevie boy you're either incredibly stupid or you are lying your ass
off. Which is it?

Pinkerton never said anything like bell wire being sufficient, nor have any
of the other wire pragmatists around here.

Now if you want to spend a small sum of money on cheap bell wire or
some cheap maplin stuff and compare with your dads (whatever that
is... could be important) before you jump straight in to see if your
ears notice or appreciate any difference then this would be a good
course of action.

Again, none of the wire pragmatists are suggesting that anything like bell
wire be used.

Cable thickness is NOT an issue as some would think.

Obviously Stevie Boy, you don't know sqaut about audio technology.

I myself have my own views on cables and Bi-wiring having tried both.

Except its pretty unlikely that you did anything like a credible listening
test. So Stevie Boy don't bother us with your fun and games and come back
when you've got something that would be of interest to sophisticated adults.

What I did find that some speakers respond very well to bi-wiring
(generally those that are sensitive to front end or service changes
to the system. e.g epos)

Proof?

Myself believe the Silver anniversary to be a bit lean and light in
the bass.

Proof?

What I personally have found that *cheap* cables... those of 2 or 3
quid a metre give rather full uncontrolled bass that ok can sound
nice on some systems but unfortunatly blends over other notes losing
critical detail in the lower reaches.

Proof?

It is difficult to reccomend a cable as commercialy available cables
all have particular signatures (my belief.... here comes the flood).
You need something that suits your system.

Proof?

For cables at the lower end of the market I like VDH, Chord company
Silver cable or DNM.

Proof?


What you spend on cable entirely depends on two factors... both or
one may apply.

1. Your system set-up (quality of rather than cost)

2. Your ears.

Try again. This time Stevie Boy focus on being credible to people with IQs
over 75.

"Jim H" wrote in message
news
"Stevie Boy" wrote in message


snip

What I did find... snip
Proof?

Myself believe... snip
Proof?

What I personally have... snip
Proof?

snip... (my belief.... snip ).
Proof?

I like VDH... snip
Proof?

Strange snips I know. Point is that five times Steve expressed an
opinion and was asked for proof.

Those weren't just opinions. They were claims.

I like the cheep cables in my hifi
because I think the transparent/red cover looks neat, I can't prove
that I do, just like I can't prove I have a particualar preference
about anything.

That's something completely different.

If someone states an opinion as fact its fair to demand evidence. If
they stress five times that what they say is opinion, and not fact, I
think its a bit harsh.

Welcome to life in the real world.

Personally, expensive speaker wire is finest, 100% pure distiled
snake oil (in the case of the $23,000 OpusMM they used the poor
snake's skin too). I too doubt stevie caried out fair tests.

So what's your point?

Btw, I mentioned a test earlier in this thread, it'd be interesting
if you carried it out, Steve. (But no one will believe you if you
show a prefference for the megabucks wire!)

What you spend on cable entirely depends on two factors... both or
one may apply.

1. Your system set-up (quality of rather than cost)

2. Your ears.

Try again. This time Stevie Boy focus on being credible to people
with IQs over 75.

Oh, being seduced by fancy cable doesn't infer stupidity, I know
plenty of otherwise intellegent people who give into even sillier
purchases.

Like you said, "otherwise intelligent".

"Stevie Boy" wrote in message

"
Well you have to consider before you make your mind up that this
group is somewhat anti-specialist speaker cable all in firm belief
(particular Mr. Pinkerton) that its a waste of money and bell wire
is sufficient.

Well Stevie boy you're either incredibly stupid or you are lying
your ass off. Which is it?

Pinkerton never said anything like bell wire being sufficient, nor
have
any
of the other wire pragmatists around here.

OK perhaps I over stepped my mark there but I was just trying to
offer for the *newbie's* some kind of insight into the general
consensus of speaker cables in this group.

*What* general consensus?

While you may feel I'm in the wrong in my judgements of what I hear I
still feel an alternative view is justified.

It's good for a laugh.

After all it just a view no more than yours. You hear what you hear
and I hear what I hear.

So you did pass Sophistry 101.

LOL!

Now if you want to spend a small sum of money on cheap bell wire or
some cheap maplin stuff and compare with your dads (whatever that
is... could be important) before you jump straight in to see if your
ears notice or appreciate any difference then this would be a good
course of action.

Again, none of the wire pragmatists are suggesting that anything
like bell wire be used.

Nor was I it was just a terminollogy for cheap cable.

Typical of people like you, Stevie Boy. When you get nailed for your
careless claims, instead of facing up to that, you hide behind the old "it
was just a figure of speech" defense.

Cable thickness is NOT an issue as some would think.

Obviously Stevie Boy, you don't know sqaut about audio technology.

???? What makes you say this? Thin works as well as thick for me.

We'll add deafness to your list of personal faults, Stevie Boy.

Obviously were not talking about fuse wire or the likes were talking
about commercially available cables that range in all kinds of sizes.
Cables designed for use as speaker cable.

There Stevie Boy goes again. He's hiding behind the old "it was just a
figure of speech" defense.

I myself have my own views on cables and Bi-wiring having tried
both.

Except its pretty unlikely that you did anything like a credible
listening test.

Well whatever a credible listening test *is* is open to debate.

Everything is open to debate, but one side of the debate is wrong.

But I would say that it took months of listening on two systems and
verified by 3 people.

A whole 3 people?

Wow!

So Stevie Boy don't bother us with your fun and games and come back
when you've got something that would be of interest to sophisticated
adults.

:-( shall I go back to snoring then or just pop over to
uk.rec.audio.vinyl

It seems like an appropriate ghetto for the likes of you, Stevie Boy.

What I did find that some speakers respond very well to bi-wiring
(generally those that are sensitive to front end or service changes
to the system. e.g epos)

Proof?

How can I provide proof?

Mental competence would be a big help.

Me just merely talking about my experiences here would not give 1
Iota of proof. It is something that has to be taken on face value.

IOW, it is wroth zero.

It no more worse me saying this than saying Maplin speaker cable is
adequate (which it maybe).

If you pick the right Maplin cable for the application,t hen it is adequate.

Myself believe the Silver anniversary to be a bit lean and light in
the bass.

Proof?

See above.

OK, you were just trolling.

Ive heard it in a friends system against some NAC A4. The
Anniversary had many virtues but overall the NAC A4 was prefered in
*this* system.

Yawn.

What I personally have found that *cheap* cables... those of 2 or 3
quid a metre give rather full uncontrolled bass that ok can sound
nice on some systems but unfortunatly blends over other notes losing
critical detail in the lower reaches.

Proof?

Been down this road before.

No, its the high road. You don't go there Steview Boy. You don't even know
where it is, even with a map in your hands.

QED's 42 and 79 strand cable both IMO
sound this way and also the similiar cabletalk stuff to mention a few.
The only way is to listen for yourself in your system... However
without a reference to listen to it would be hard to say otherwise.
You can never know what your system is capable of until it's
implemented.

It is difficult to reccomend a cable as commercialy available cables
all have particular signatures (my belief.... here comes the flood).
You need something that suits your system.

Proof?

Again Arny (that has a familiar ring to.... I'll be back :-) ) just
something Ive experienced trying different cables and/or equipment in
a system. Or through visits to other working systems demonstrating
cables.

OK, so you free associate a lot, Steview Boy.

For cables at the lower end of the market I like VDH, Chord company
Silver cable or DNM.

Proof?

It's not something I need to proof is it?

You could try to get your word forms right, even if you are a zero at
technology.

It's merely a statement of
cables *I* prefer. i'm just putting some guide lines in.

Your preferences are as good as free association, Steview boy.

What you spend on cable entirely depends on two factors... both or
one may apply.

1. Your system set-up (quality of rather than cost)

2. Your ears.

Try again. This time Stevie Boy focus on being credible to people
with IQs over 75.

Oh sorry Arny I replied to the wrong person :-)

Yawn.

Arny Krueger wrote in uk.rec.audio

"Jim H" wrote in message
news
"Stevie Boy" wrote in message


snip

What I did find... snip
Proof?

Myself believe... snip
Proof?

What I personally have... snip
Proof?

snip... (my belief.... snip ).
Proof?

I like VDH... snip
Proof?

Strange snips I know. Point is that five times Steve expressed an
opinion and was asked for proof.

Those weren't just opinions. They were claims.

Then we just read it differently. In my mind the bits I left in qualified
what he said as opinion. I suppose you could say that when we express an
opinion we are asserting that thing to be true rather than merely stating a
belief, if you passed Philosophy of Semantics 101 ;-)

I like the cheep cables in my hifi
because I think the transparent/red cover looks neat, I can't prove
that I do, just like I can't prove I have a particualar preference
about anything.

That's something completely different.

Why? When you ask for proof on "I like VDH, Chord company Silver cable or
DNM." that's not so different from me trying to prove I like my cable. If
you are asking for proof of the resons we like it I can't prove mine looks
groovy, in the same way SB can't prove he enjoys the sound, or that the
sound is even different.

A belief may be justified without being proven.

If someone states an opinion as fact its fair to demand evidence. If
they stress five times that what they say is opinion, and not fact, I
think its a bit harsh.

Welcome to life in the real world.

Personally, expensive speaker wire is finest, 100% pure distiled
snake oil (in the case of the $23,000 OpusMM they used the poor
snake's skin too). I too doubt stevie caried out fair tests.

So what's your point?

I'm stating my opinion on the mater, the point is the OP asked for it.
And, for ballance, to say I'm not supporting expensive cables.

Btw, I mentioned a test earlier in this thread, it'd be interesting
if you carried it out, Steve. (But no one will believe you if you
show a prefference for the megabucks wire!)

What you spend on cable entirely depends on two factors... both or
one may apply.

1. Your system set-up (quality of rather than cost)

2. Your ears.

Try again. This time Stevie Boy focus on being credible to people
with IQs over 75.

Oh, being seduced by fancy cable doesn't infer stupidity, I know
plenty of otherwise intellegent people who give into even sillier
purchases.

Like you said, "otherwise intelligent".

Yes, intelligent, with an IQ over 75.

In article , Chris Isbell
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:38:39 +0100, "The EggKing"
wrote:

It has been said that I could walk into Maplins and get hold of some
speaker cable for a couple of quid a metre. It's getting to me now and
my dad needs his cable back soon! So anyway I don't want two runs to
each speaker so Biwire cable it must be.

Any advice or recommendations welcome and appreciated

Go to Maplin and buy the thickest cable you feel comfortable with. The
electrons [1] don't care what price you paid for it and whether or not
it is a 'good' brand. ;-)


[1] Sorry, Jim, I should say the electromagnetic field does not care....
:^)

That's OK. Without the electrons showing the way, the fields would probably
end up getting lost on the way. I'm sure the fields appreciate the
guidance. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Stevie Boy
wrote:


Cable thickness is NOT an issue as some would think.

I think it can be. If the cables are too thin (or the pair of conductor
bundles too far apart) the changes due to resistance and inductance can be
both measureable and audible. However I'd agree that once the wire
thickness is 'adequate' (a moveable feast) making it thicker probably won't
have much effect.

I myself have my own views on cables and Bi-wiring having tried both.
What I did find that some speakers respond very well to bi-wiring

FWIW bi-wiring can be shown to have a calculable effect in some cases.
However I am not sure how often this shows up enough in practice to be
audible. Given decent cables I can't say I ever heard any difference when I
experimented with this myself many years ago.


What you spend on cable entirely depends on two factors... both or one
may apply.

1. Your system set-up (quality of rather than cost)

2. Your ears.

Agreed. My own experience is that the Maplin cables work fine.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Old Fart at Play wrote:

I never called myself a wire pragmatist but bell wire is sufficient :-)


I had better qualify that: Bell wire is sufficient for shortish lengths
of speaker cable.


Years ago in his instruction books, Mr Quad said that the loop resistance
of the speaker wire shouldn't exceed 5% of the nominal speaker impedance.
I doubt the laws of physics have changed since then.


So Maplin "bell wire", 14pence/metre, solid core 0.5mm diameter
would be good up to 2.3m for 8 ohm speakers.
"79 strand" cable would be good up to 29m.

Roger.

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message


In article ,

Old Fart at Play wrote:
Pinkerton never said anything like bell wire being sufficient, nor
have any of the other wire pragmatists around here.

I never called myself a wire pragmatist but bell wire is sufficient
:-)

I had better qualify that: Bell wire is sufficient for shortish
lengths of speaker cable.

True.

Years ago in his instruction books, Mr. Quad said that the loop
resistance of the speaker wire shouldn't exceed 5% of the nominal
speaker impedance. I doubt the laws of physics have changed since
then.

That would allow ca. 0.5 dB frequency response variations due to variations
in the speaker's impedance curve. In general, it would only be heard in a
very carefully-run listening test involving immediate comparisons, specially
trained listeners, and carefully-chosen recordings.

In short no magic wire advocate I've encountered would want to do that much
work, let alone have a clue about how to actually accomplish it.

However, I'd guess none of those who recommend fancy cables possess
an accurate ohm meter or even know how to use one.

That would seriously compromise their much-vaunted subjectivism.

To do things right they'd need to measure impedance, not just resistance.
However given how intellectually limited and technically uneducated they
generally are, its all over their head.

This lack of education, experience and intelligence extends to those who are
reputed to be the most technically expert of the employees and technical
consultants of magic wire vendors. Look how long it took Monster Cable to
come up with speaker cables that successfully addressed skin effect - at
least 3 generations of products per my observations.

AFAIK no magic wire vendor has figured out how to address skin effect and
inductance at the same time.

In article , Arny Krueger
wrote:


AFAIK no magic wire vendor has figured out how to address skin effect
and inductance at the same time.

TBH What intrigues me is that some makers and reviewers claim that some
cables symultaneously have 'low inductance' *and* 'low capacitance'. Since
this product is linked to the speed of EM wave propagation this is
potentially equivalent to claiming that for their cables the signals move
faster than the speed of light in vacuum. :-)

If they *were* right, I suspect they would by now be very rich and famous
for reasons completely unconnected with audio. 8-]

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html