On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:26:44 +0100, Stevie Boy wrote:

Ok, but how about an A/B test over a few weeks or even months. The point
is
that knowing which cable is used could change the results, with a £150
piece of wire you may subconsciously convince yourself of new details in
order to justify the purchase.

I agree for those that look at bucks = better will convince themselves.
However we all know this is not always true. One has to be open minded
about
what one hears and the cables tested on a good range of recordings that
will
give a full picture of the wire on test in the said system.

Howver a cable can only perform IMO to their best in the correct system
so a
expensive cable could easily be outstriped by one thats very cheap but
this
does not make the cheap one ideal.

The next time you compare two cables anyway, why not try not knowing which
is which? 'Cable A' is just as meaningful a description as the fancy name
it sells under. Maybe you don't think you'll be influenced by the knowledge
of which is 'A'. In which case, great, you don't loose - double blindnes
can only make the results more accurate, not less.

When you show your friends your cables it isn't double blind either,
because you know which is the 'better' wire. This may seem a subtle
difference, but studies have shown placebo effect to be much stronger when
doctors don't know they're prescribing placebo. The pepsi challenge wasn't
double blind and everyone chose pepsi, if coke had of done it everyone
would have chosen coke, if it was double blind it /may/ have been fair.

This is why a double blind test is the standard measure for scientific
proof.

Well there is a Hi-Fi mag that uses this standard (or used to) and the
panel
that sat in on these tests could not agree on what they heard from each
product.
So scientific or not it's a mockery.

Any psychological experiment will have a level at which the results become
statistically significent. If the reviewers can't agree after a long time
listening that level hasn't been reached and the cables should be said to
be not significently different. I don't think its a mockery if no certain
result is reached.

Are you saying that if the reviewers had known which is which they would
have agreed? I don't see how knowing the name of the cable changes what you
hear.


Even Uri geller cant reproduce his wonders under labs test (if he has any
of
course)

So are there audio differences that disapear under scientific tests, but
would be there otherwise?

Likewise, if Uri can't do his magic under controlled conditions I doubt he
can do it at all (last I heard he shocked the scientists?)

If one cable is noticeably better than the other you should
ultimately be able to say which is which.

I again agree but I do believe it's important to know the pieces of music
you listen to well and choose those pieces of music carefully so you
experience as much freq range to your ears as possible.

Sure. For everything I've said so far I'm assuming that you know the music
very well, and that the same music is used.

I sat in on a blind test having to jot down digital audio sources. We
were
given 2 tracks for each source and then from what we heard make a
decision
on which source was being played at that time. Since the music varied
from
source to source and one was not very familiar with the chossen music it
was
not easy. Needles to say I did not do very well. However from such test I
do
feel that it would be wrong to make final judgements on how good/bad the
products were. Time speaks volumes.

I kinda agree. But If a piece of HiFi will improve my equipment only to a
level that I won't even realise it HAS improved for another few weeks, I'm
not interested in such a small improvement!

An interesting one would be to wire twice, but with identical wire, and
tell the cable lover channel A cost 50p/m and B is some solid silver
affair
at £10/m. Then leave him to listen for a few days and see which he
preferred.

Hmm trust you asking for. For me that would be a difficult one to answer.
However if B for instance did sound better to some it would have to be
quantified how it sounded better over A. If they could not do this then
they
would have to say B is no better than A.

I'd bet more than 80% say A.

Of course theres always a percentage of plebs. But I reckon it would be
more
the uninitiated new to Hi-Fi who make the mistake.
However without a genuine test its hearsay.

Yep. There'd also be a lot of people determined that there is no
difference, who would say without listening and non-conformists who say the
cheap stuff just to be 'individual'. The most satisfying one would be to
put the magic cable marketing through a double blind test, particuarly the
ones who say things like "When I got them home and put them in my system
they totally blew me away" (actual quote from transparent cable site)

Of course, you'd have to cover up
the amplifier terminals and check for peeking!

Blast!! :-)

If you're brave enough to venture through the jungle round the back of my
amp, its you'll unlikely return anyway.

--
Jim H